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Comments
I never thought I'd watch a show where the main character ends up raising a literally reborn version of the main villain either.
[12:56:47] [GMH] [09:38:28] [fourteenwings] b) GMH you posted in this thread and you did one of those posts where you don't actually do said thing but you posted anyways
[12:56:54] [GMH] a) yeah i was pretty stunned at that one
[12:57:27] [GMH] b) well, dub-haters do that in threads about dubs (in ways that aren't just "what's your opinion on dubs"), so...
[12:59:05] [GMH] though tbh i find myself mentioning the same several series i like, over and over again, when i post on MAL, so it can get tiring
[12:59:13] [GMH] and i think i've mentioend _this_ before too lol
[12:59:28] [GMH] (not really related to that thread in question lol)
Also watched KING of PRISM -PRIDE the HERO-, finally. I am glad I got into these movies. They are literally everything I'd want from an idol movie series that doesn't involve Aikatsu! or the Pretty Series. Well, they are Pretty Series movies, but they aren't mainline Pretty Series.
Feel free to discuss/disagree/etc.
I mean, that's true for anything set in a real life location.
And there's quite a lot of culture-specific stuff even if it's not immediately obvious. Just about all superhero-derived magical girl stories (and this really goes beyond anime) work on a (sometimes unstated) restriction that they only ever use their superpowers in the context of conflict against a particular set of enemies or a specific type of supernatural phenomena, and it's been that way since like, Cutie Honey in the '70s. They can move on to a different enemy group after the initial one is done, but get stuck with that one in turn.
Actually this restriction goes for just about every superhero story from Japan I've come across, with the exceptions having very distinguishing features that mark them as exceptions. Like crossovers, or media that draws more heavily from American superheroes, or like, Concrete Revolutio where everyone's a stand-in for a pre-existing character from elsewhere, so it's like a pretend crossover.
I'm sure there's more but this is the cultural niche I'm most familiar with for Japanese media.
But to the people behind the anime, the dining table isn't unusually low.
If you were to watch a whole swathe of modern popular or counter-culture shows from different parts of the world, you would most certainly notice the differences with how narrative and plot structure work. Or even what the characters are allowed to say or do.
There are anime where there are just no male characters with faces at all, and vice-versa. In anime, monster girls and half-animal hybrids are a quirk and a clear genre in their own right. Western things don't seem to have as much of a distinction, and almost all shows involving the supernatural or sci-fi will have them if they go on long enough.
The harem genre alone is like, the most specific thing. There are very few modern franchises from outside anime culture telling similar stories.
Anime culture (and Japanese movie subculture) has a very, very specific way that death games work, even more so now that social media is entwined with it. They aren't presented as a problem in and of themselves (aside from the characters who have to endure them, but the brutality is not presented as the worst thing ever to the viewer but a serious plot to overcome).
It's also very hard to imagine a Western show where the main character and the villain spar over differences in philosophical viewpoint as they actually spar during a fight.
Then there's mecha anime, and magical girl anime, both of which don't really have analogies outside of anime.
It's kind of weird to claim anime isn't very specifically anime because then why would you be watching anime and not other things? I remember very specifically that writers who do Sentai or more normal live-action movies who came from anime complain a lot about not being able to do the ridiculously long speeches that anime characters will have in any given episode.
So... there's a few things.
Hmm...that's a good question -- particularly as it is divorced from the notion of associating (or not associating) anime with Japanese culture explicitly, so that means my usual answer (which I gave above) doesn't apply.
But it's true that I do watch anime for none of the reasons you mentioned.
I feel like, I approach western TV shows, live-action and animated, as well as live-action non-western shows, with a similar mindset as I do anime. Like, at some fundamental level, I am trying to get the same thing out of all of them.
Maybe I'm overstating the similarity. I can obviously tell genre differences, and I already know I like sci-fi and fantasy, and western live action TV (for example) has a lot less sci-fi and fantasy than anime -- while anime has more of these, and particularly, fantasy in anime also has a decent chance of being the kind of JRPG-style version of swords-and-sorcery that I'm particularly fond of. Maybe I don't associate this distinctiveness with it being "anime", because I got into this (sub)genre through video games (and D&D)? Though I think this (sub)genre itself is descended in large part from these games anyway...
Also, I like anime-style art and the more vibrantly-colored aesthetics. And I also prefer anime soundtracks (theme tunes and background music).
Meanwhile, it just so happens that it's relatively easy for me to choose anime to watch (especially since I already built up a big long PTW), while I haven't really "diffused out" into western TV in general, beyond a handful of shows I know well. (Maybe anime having smaller shows has helped itself in that regard, ironically?)
So, essentially, I watch anime not because it's different/distinctive, but because it's convenient, has some preferred genres in greater frequency, and looks/sounds better (in my opinion). Though those preferences didn't develop because of my watching anime -- I went into the realm of anime with these preferences already in place, I feel. And I'm definitely not totally fond of some of the more common tropes in anime series (e.g. comedic sexual fanservice tropes), which are things that a lot of anime fans point to as why they like anime.
Funny you should say this because I sometimes feel anime characters could cut down on the long speeches/descriptions of things, especially if it's in the midst of intense action. (Heavy Object, for example, is frequently guilty of this.)
"I don't watch anime because it's different from other things but here are all the reasons anime is different from other things?"
To be like, more clear about this. This thing asked whether or not anime was a very Japanese thing, but (until recently or possibly ongoing) it is still a subculture in Japan which is a society where subculture is literally an insult. There are a lot of differences in the way anime and a live-action movie or dorama series are made or approached, so I guess in that sense it isn't as quintessentially Japanese as people would claim.
But anime, like every medium, is very much a space where the ideas that are expounded upon will be those that are appreciated within said medium.
As much as I hate bringing this sacriledge into my anime thread; the two most consistently popular shows of the past few years in western media are Game of Thrones and The Walking Dead. I've never met anybody who watched either, but they exist. There's also all the SyFy shows, the DCW, etc.
As for the JRPG thing; that's obviously a very anime thing so you wouldn't find it elsewhere.
The gist of it is, in Japanese superhero stories, the pro-regulation/government side tends to be unambiguously good even when it draws from western media where it's not that way.
Though this distinction
Doesn't seem all that relevant to me. Civil War is technically based on a comic storyline that still featured Captain America on the anti-regulation despite superheroes having been longer established in the comics' universe at the time.
In fact, the only reason why Kamen Rider Build has "these governments are evil" twice in a row is because none of the governments are part of actual Japan. Even so, the Default Japan country (as compared to Blue North Korea and Totally Not China) has morphed into the "good" one once they rid it of the two higher ups who were making dubious decisions.
That thing about superheroes being part of everyday life really does stick though.
I guess the thing is that in American culture there is a gigantic divide with the political parties. Even though they've kind of forgotten their roots, the parties brought "regulation" and "de-regulation" into popular culture. Mix that with the American obsession with rebel characters and darker takes on things where everything is the worst (especially the government) and you get where we are.
Japan, on the other hand, loves society and by extension it's governing organization the... government and this is then reflected in anime and toku (even danged Kamen Rider had a season where the Rider being a police officer and it wasn't immediately the worst thing).
(The Western Animation section is mostly Simpsons examples but this seems like the kind of theme that western cartoons tend to avoid despite its cultural prevalence)
I think the plot of Persona 5 is oddly relevant here. There is a corrupt politician, but the whole plot is about preventing him from ascending to an important office. In a sense, the main characters are preserving the purity of government.
But, upon closer examination, they don't seem to be reasons specific to anime -- i.e., it's not like I "developed a taste for anime"; it's that I had these tastes and anime simply came along as a convenient source.
And for that matter, Star Wars is one of the most readily recognizable and prominent franchises in western media, and we also have a bunch of fantasy influences running throughout a number of classic Disney movies that remain very much part of popular consciousness.
But what I'm talking about is, if I'm going to turn on the TV, that's generally not what I'll end up finding. Sure, this is arguably "mitigated" by the fact that cable packages have increasing numbers of channels these days, but I'm talking about more of the bread-and-butter shows, like mysteries (and police procedurals), sitcoms, documentaries, reality shows, game shows, and so on.
And that's not to say there's nothing I like here. I often do like documentaries, for example. But there's little sci-fi and fantasy fiction.
Was this an anime thing that became a JRPG thing, or the other way around? Obviously, I got into it through JRPGs, but I kinda feel that anime picked this up independently of and/or taking after JRPGs, rather than JRPGs taking after anime.
Off the top of my head, there's Guilty Crown. And then there's a variety of corrupt officials in Black Bullet.
And there are a number of stories that involve various amounts of conspiracies amongst people in power.
Besides, taking down an oppressive person-in-charge, be it a demon lord or a dictator oligarch, is a pretty popular story premise.
I'm not really in tune with U.S. superhero stories, as I've largely ignored them, but I do remember seeing similar elements to what I've mentioned above -- such as Lex Luthor, who is a quite prominent example of the "corrupt corporate executive" trope. (Though obviously, The Joker isn't such.)
But, as an American myself, I am a little skeptical about how directly these political elements factor into these shows. I don't think it's quite a direct correlation, at least.
That might have to do with a lot of western cartoons being children's things, where openly political themes -- especially ones of a cynical nature such as this -- are less common. Corrupt politician jokes are a dime a dozen in the U.S., but this doesn't seem to be unique to the U.S. -- in a way it's a pretty common feature around the world.
Are they represented as "legit" authority (i.e. not masquerading as politicians that they actually killed, or having attained their positions by vote-tampering)? If so, does anyone actually go after them without being suggested to be misguided?
Fighting against demon Lords and dictators is very, very different from having an anti-authority bend or criticizing a real-world government by proxy. They're basically the go-to convenience to have your heroes fight "opression" and avoid looking like you're criticizing a "legit" government.
Conspiracies tend to be a similar case, really. Off the top of my head, Symphogear AXZ has them fighting the Illuminati but never do more than politely object at the Kazanari patriarch (who is, by the way, portrayed with no sympathetic traits, unlike the villains that actually get beaten up). And way back in the first season, Fine is never officially in a position of power as all the sneaky stuff was done under the counter while her public guise stays in R&D, and in the end there's no mention of her collaborators suffering any consequence beyond the mook soldiers she killed. There's clearly a difference in how the show treats people who sneak into power versus official government authority figures who are also corrupt or horrible despite that.
Going back to Captain America, there's one storyline written during the Nixon era where he discovers that the actual President of the US was behind a villain group he was fighting. That's the kind of anti-authority story I'm thinking of.
Superman fighting Luthor isn't really anti-authority from what I can tell. He's super individualistic and usually his power over people tends non-formal. One of the earlier stories where Superman beats evil executive Luthor (as opposed to just mad scientist Luthor) involved Superman arresting him on behalf of the mayor. (There have been Luthor as President stories but I'm not sure how those went besides him getting impeached for drug abuse)
I guess in that sense there's a very protectionist stance; the Japanese government is inherently good and that must never be questioned to an uncomfortable degree.
Black Bullet is a story about discrimination, but it also very much holds to the heroes taking registration and things for granted. Of course, the girls have to be tested every once in a while to make sure the Gastrea inside them doesn't go out of control, but the fact that they choose to do it means they respect the government to some extent.
I feel like in Black Bullet, the villain is less corrupt politicians but the elite of the population taking advantage of the situation. I remember that breaking down the barriers was supposed to be for someone's economic benefit, and that Kisara's brother was specifically acting against the government.
Again, I remember that the Seitenshi was an idealistic force that eventually even grants the Gastrea girls amnesty during the story, and they were the head of the government and therefore still not evil.
Neither of those are examples of effective governance. Demon Lords are just all evil, and dictators are worse. Here we're talking about a government that isn't too extreme having corrupt people run it and this being presented in a manner where the main characters accept it in a cynical way.
I don't think overall cultural influence has to result in direct correlation.
Protectionist, perhaps, but the show didn't really explore in the direction of international relations.
Black Bullet's Seitenshi is an idealistic force, yes, though clearly not the only one. However, if you wanted to make the "purity" point, she'd be the better example. (She's even literally portrayed wearing bright white colors.)
What I meant by my line is that I think you're reading too hard into connecting the "rebelliousness" of a stereotypical American to finding that theme in U.S. entertainment media, which has many examples of law and order (beyond just one show with literally that name) being upheld as ideals, such as in a whole variety of police procedurals and detective mysteries, frequently with police and prosecutors themselves as protagonists. And for nonfiction shows, there's cop shows, arbitration court shows (e.g. Judge Judy), and so on.
Detective mysteries are all about that rebel who will just not listen to the police who ends up solving the problem.
Another good example is protagonist-organization-based-morality. If the MC is basic police, the FBI and CIA and etc will be evil. If MC is FBI, the basic police are incompetent and the CIA is evil. If the MC is CIA, everybody below that is incompetent and the FBI is usually corrupt. They can't even stop rebelling against each other, even though they are under one government.
1. What about the original series, what about Criminal Intent, what about the nonfiction series, and so on?
2. Detective Stabler roughing up suspects is:
2a. indeed, unconstitutional (though ironically, realistic in some ways, given police brutality issues in this country), and
2b. not presented as him being motivated by "rebellion", but rather as him being motivated by a desire for results combined with projecting his personal/family issues onto his work and vice versa.
The theme of rebellion is far less prevalent in U.S. TV shows than you suggest it is.
That sounds like exactly the kind of noncommittal that Toji no Miko has been.
Ideals are a different idea from supporting any authority in particular, though. Superman's "default" schtick has been described as "truth, justice and the American way" but I've never found anything that supports him as a figure of authority, because those inevitably end up dystopian. And the whole supervillainPresident storyline in Captain America leads to him deciding he can support American ideals without necessarily supporting the government.
Character motivations aren't necessarily the same as the themes put forward, though. At the very least, solving problems while violating the law plays into that fetishizing of individualism since it suggests you can do things your own way despite going against so many established rules.
And he's only one of four detectives, not counting the precinct captain and the ADA who are also major characters. And it's not like Stabler gets away with it all the time -- his anger issues and behaviors have been the subject of admonitions from his superiors and Internal Affairs inquiries, because they can and sometimes do cause problems in the course of investigations.
The most one could say is "they didn't write the character out of the show, just because he's popular", though if we're arguing on popularity, let's also consider the number of people who like him not because he's rebellious but because they think he's hot. (Far as I can tell there are a number of Stabler fangirls.)
Meanwhile, an example like stabler is counterbalanced by shows like "World's Wildest Police Chases"/"World's Wildest Cop Videos", which, if you had to place them on an authority/rebellion scale, definitely score high on the authority side.
Incidentally, that highlights an internal "conflict" that muddies the notion that "America is about freedom" is a popular meme, because a number of right-wingers -- among whom the ideas of rebelling against the government and rugged individualism are popular -- actually just want "freedom" for themselves, but reduce the freedom of others to be different from them, portraying others as deviants, criminals, or otherwise "un-American". This meme is riddled with more inconsistencies in the American consciousness than you give it credit for.
Patriotism without supporting the government is a far cry from Japanese media where pro-regulation is unambiguously the good side or all the examples of "this person is horrible but he got this position legitimately so I can't hit him".
I don't think this problem even really exists in Japanese media. I've literally never found any confirmation where something had to be a subordinate to a character's popularity unless the creators agreed. Like the assertion that Toriyama gave up on trying to make Gohan the main character of Dragon Ball's later portion because of fan pressure, when the actual case is that he discovered Gohan just isn't suited for it.
Coverage of real life organizations is a different case from fiction, though. Even getting enough material for a TV show might take more effort and insider knowledge than anyone against the organizations could manage. Wikiepdia's article forWorld's Wildest Police Videos actually specifies that "[m]uch of the footage had previously only been seen by law enforcement officials" (with a citation).
I'm not really putting individualism and authoritarianism as mutually exclusive or opposed to each other. Wish-fulfillment that involves a single person or group gaining the power to impose on others can easily fall into both.
None of these shows star cops. All of the protagonists in each case are presented as being way better than the police, and the officer that works with them is usually fed up with how terrible the police system is. If they aren't, they are the ideal police system, which is proven to be at fault when compared to the protagonist's way of thinking.
Plus, it's not pleasant to be accused of something when I actually know what I'm talking about.
Just because the protagonist was slightly hoist on his own petard a handful of times, it doesn't mean what they were doing wasn't considered generally okay.
I think the only overall thing I'm arguing here is that in Japanese media, the governing force will generally be presented as something you can't or shouldn't argue with, whilst in American media, if you're not presenting a cynical take on the government you might as well not even have a show.
I mean, even with Superman, the government is just frequently not in agreement with his existence or help if they're featured in the story. The only show in the DCW where the government is good is Supergirl which, hilariously enough, is set on an alternate Earth.
In Arrow at the moment, Oliver Queen is under investigation by the incompetent FBI. Meanwhile, ARGUS continues to be extremely useless and the national guard and army are never available for any given crisis. Either that or Mayor Queen has been a secret Republican this entire time and specifically requests they don't show up. The very Star City he governs also just passed an anti-Vigilante (ie him) law.
In The Flash, Barry Allen has been arrested by an incompetent police department (the one he works for!) being manipulated by the current main villain.
In Legends of Tomorrow, the governing authority on time is full of so many idiots that the chief of the department doesn't notice his entire department get murdered by Grodd right behind him whilst he's on a video call.
The pattern you're noting is naturally more common amongst fiction that stars characters with superpowers in otherwise-realistic settings (such as superhero fiction). Unless your protag is a member of law enforcement, naturally said protag has an edge over normal law enforcement, but also generally tries to avoid suspicion/exploitation/being co-opted into political agendas/other reasons and therefore there's that constant tension with institutions of formal, real-life government.
This pattern doesn't noticeably exist, or at least exists to a much lesser degree, on average, in U.S. TV shows outside of this genre.
The idea that anime is "generally not hugely culture-specific" is nt really true unless you only look at general concepts rather than how they're approached. And by that reasoning, very little in human history is "hugely culture-specific".
And as mentioned some posts earlier, there are whole genres of anime built on premises that wouldn't or didn't fly in other cultural spheres.
I think Cutie Honey Universe made Honey part of a dedicated police(?) team just to have a "most prominent adult female is actually the main villain" twist.
I don't know if this is going to be a thing to expect from now on.
I watch(ed) Game of Thrones, it's one of the few internet things I can think of that also comes up in real life to me, as some friends also watch it. Though I stopped watching at some point because ehh, one hour episodes are too long for instant gratification.
Sometimes I wonder if I should get into anime, my friends watch it, I like the art style and the characters speak Japanese.