I want to join Something Awful now

Forzare

Opinions may offend other people, ergo, opinions are bad.

I had a friend who liked to talk about how opinions are what cause conflict and are bad, but he was mostly doing that to troll our very republican civics teacher.

Myrmidon

Also, Miijhal, that's not what that thread is about and you know it.

MillerCross

My response to that article:

1) AHAHAHAH oh wow! you're serious. Just because a work has a greatly detailed universe and there're some fucktarded people who think that living there is somehow paradise or whatever doesn't mean that all nerds/geeks/what have you are a bunch of deluded cunts

2) wait, whut? So...you're saying that TDK is simplistic because it has a flaw? And that a story that has Good vs Evil is "bad storytelling"? You really need some dictionaries, dude. Also, a work being simplistic doesn't mean that a work is not worth checking out.

3) Ah, dogmatism. Yes, because all nerds somehow think that the Dark Knight is the best movie of all time. This man clearly missed the period when bashing it was the cool thing that all Batfans did

4 and 5) Meh, industry's flawed. Not the nerds fault insofar as they're not the ones writing the stories and they're not the ones who don't know how to write a female superhero in most cases.

And 5 is just a complaint about money, meh. 

Malkavian

My problem with it is simply the fact that it represents my problem with
most TvTropes writers. I.E: the idea that tropes solve everything
writer related.

I agree with this sentiment wholeheartedly. Put in simple terms, Tropes are tools. A chainsaw is a tool too. Just because you know a chainsaw is a tool doesn't mean you understand how to use it or the proper times and context of when to use it. Writing requires deeper study. It's not just typing things you think are cool.

^I'm baffled as to how any of those problems are endemic to only geek movies. Yeah, we know Rom Coms aren't ever accused of being needlessly simplistic or being unrealistic escapism.

MillerCross

They're most prominent with geek culture, admittedly.

Or at least, the stereotype is more prominent, anyway.

Malkavian

I'd disagree that sexism, escapism, or dogmatism are most prominent in
geek culture. I'd grant that because of the nature of sci-fi/fantasy we
have more ways to objectify women but I don't seen how that makes
it necessarily more sexist, particularly since most people with their
heads screwed on right will at least acknowledge they'll never date an
android.

I really don't think nerd culture is dogmatic. Hell, so many nerds tend to hate 'popular' things just for the sake of it, even if and especially if they're only popular in the nerd hub. It's why so many nerds hated on The Dark Knight while it was showered by film critics.

Also, I'd argue war films and many action film tend to have a just as if not more simplistic 'good vs. evil' them than nerd films tend to. I mean, compare Star Trek to any Stallone film.

MillerCross

I thought you were talking just about the escapism thing. 

The sexism thing is mostly dumbassery in part of both fans and writers. Fans for objectifying women vocally and writers who try to write character they don't know how to write sometimes, such as women. 

Malkavian

Oh yeah, nerd films are definitely escapism, but being more escapist doesn't make them inherently bad. I mean if someone watches Evil Dead and decides to chainsaw his family because he thinks they're deadites that says more about the kid's mental imbalance than the movie's escapism.

I'd also like to point out the main reason these movies are getting these budgets is because they're selling, which should tell anybody it's not just nerds watching them.

Engrish_Ivy

> Also, I'd argue war films and many action film tend to have a just as if
not more simplistic 'good vs. evil' them than nerd films tend to. I
mean, compare Star Trek to any Stallone film.

Given that pre-Voyager Star Trek was designed around exploring morality, it doesn't seem fair to have that franchise represent geek culture. Star Wars, Lord Of The Rings, or Spider-Man are much more representative.

Also, Stallone's First Blood definitely had some food for thought with regard to the subject. Not so much the sequels, of course.

MillerCross

Given that pre-Voyager Star Trek was designed around exploring morality, it doesn't seem fair to have that franchise represent geek culture.

I'm guessing it's a typo, but to say that using Star Trek as a representative of geek culture doesn't seem fair seems a bit...dumb.

Engrish_Ivy

I meant, representing geek culture in terms of how geek culture views morality. Star Trek's take is not all that common, unfortunately...

Malkavian

^^^Dude, the entire point of Spider-man is exploring morality. Spider-man is wracked with self-doubt about what he does and a  recurring theme is that every life is worth something, no matter how vile they seem. Same with Lord of The Rings The whole point is how horrific war is and there are no real heroes. I'll give you Star Wars, but again it's no worse than a typical action movie in that regard.

First Blood has a veneer of thought about the treatment of Nam veterans, but never delivers. Granted it's more than most action films but still

^^That too.Even these days the stereotypical nerd in a show or movie will love Star Trek.

Engrish_Ivy

@Malkavian: Forgive me; I've only seen the first two movies, and that was a while ago.

MillerCross

I'd argue Star Wars for episode V. although it may be just me who sees the subtext of Luke considering whether he should kill a man or not and the balancing of said action. 

Malkavian

If we're going to go for moral problems within nerd culture I'd say rationalization is a much bigger one. Mainly I'm thinking about how people react to Magneto, and decide his angry violence is a better reaction than Xavier's bid for understanding and coexistence.

^You could also argue the prequels and the Clone Wars cartoon work for more moral complexity but....AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

MillerCross

I don't think anyone claimed that Magneto's reaction is better. just that it's more realistic, but as someone who has payed attention to the X-Men can tell, Xavier's realistic as well. He was born unto a wealthy family whereas Magneto was a man who saw everything he loved being killed for nothing more than who he was. 

Malkavian

Funny you should say that.

I mean, I certainly think Magneto had a realistic reaction to what happened to him, but it certainly wasn't one to be followed by example. Just because someone has reasons for what they do doesn't make what they do not evil.

vandro

Moviebob is a cynical resented man. I am not surprised that he sided with magneto.

MillerCross

Ugh, that whole thing made me cringe. Yes, I was bullied, no I wouldn't kill one of the people who bullied me. Maybe punch them or fight them or something (If they start it or something). But I wouldn't try to go and escalate the whole situation. 

Engrish_Ivy

He's really gone downhill in the past year and a half or so. Yikes.

Malkavian

And there are many like him. This is also a problem. The thing is Moviebob himself is a very intelligent man, but like many nerds he can't let go of childhood resentments and that's not a healthy attitude to hold on to.

Bob

So, is it too late for me to ramble on about how stupid TVT's "light novel" idea is?

Engrish_Ivy

Nope!

MillerCross

Do it, fagget. 

Malkavian

How would an American Light novel exactly be different from a paperback I buy for a long train ride, exactly?

Bob

Great! First off,

I think it's stupid that they feel the need to publish them specifically as Light Novels, considering that LNs aren't even a thing outside of Japan

Second, as others have stated, trying to create something entirely out of tropes instead of developing some sort of plot or setting or other character quirks that don't have tropes relating to them is just flat out foolish. This is the kind of thing I'd expect from a group of maybe four or five kids who stumbled upon TVTropes for the first time and thought it'd be OMG SO COOOOOL to make an entirely trope based work.

Third, seriously, the whole "SHE'S 13 AND SNARKY AND GIRLY AND TOTES A LESBIAN GUYS, ISN'T THAT HOT?" Let's just ignore the paedophilic overtones for one moment. It's like someone gathered up every troper tales entry that seemed like it could have been written by a female and combined them all to make a character that would undoubtedly appeal to most tropers. Hell, it's like that for all of the characters. Also, this may be because of the relying on tropes to create the characters, but they're so damn flat. Maybe on the off-chance that this dumb little project actually takes (pfffft HA) off there'll be something slightly resembling character growth (here's where I'd put a joke about tropers taking that out of context to mean physical growth, but considering they're climaxing over little girls, I suppose it wouldn't be all that relevant), but I highly doubt it.

Fourth, they're teenagers. Why, why, why all the fanservice tropes? :<

Fifth, do the themes, colours, etc. actually factor into the thus-far-nonexistant plot at all? Is there any backstory for them? What purpose do they serve?

Basically, this is just a troper's wet dream / clusterfuck of disorganized ideas that, thankfully, will go nowhere.

Also, agreeing with Culex, that fanart is lacking, which is another thing that's wrong with most tropers. Instead of giving some sort of actual critique, it's just "oh, how wonderful! That's so awesome! It's perfect as it is and needs no improvement whatsoever! You're such a great artist / writer / painter / singer / whatever! ^_^"

In other news, I hate myself for writing this much about something that shitty.

Malkavian

Well as for teenagers and fanservice tropes... maybe a good deal of the writers are teenagers? I mean, benefit of the doubt here...

MillerCross

I know one or two of them are, yes.

Still a problem for many other reasons for me, admittedly (I don't really like Fanservice, it's pandering, and I think that even they are aware that their project is not gonna take off, as such, it feels as if they were just pandering to themselves)

Vorpy

Also there's apparently no age limit in the Light Novel, so I guess that makes fucking them a bit more okay....I think...

Bob

no age limit

ಠ_ಠ

If anything, that just makes it infinitely worse. Why? Why would they include that?

Link to where it says that?