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Twilight

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Comments

  • Juan: No, I mean that, by the end, I want to know just what the hell happened by the end of the story, who did it, and why.

    "We don't need to know anything about the monster at the end of a work. "

    This sounds boring and completely unfrightening.
  • One foot in front of the other, every day.
    Let's also keep in mind that you're the kind of reader that likes to know everything.

    In any case, information is power, power is a weapon. Knowing a monster arms the protagonists (and, internally, the audience) against it. It's usually more important than a big gun or magic sword because it reveals a special weakness.

    Only having the scantest idea about what the monster is and is capable of is frightening because there's no way of predicting or understanding it. It gets the audience's own imagination running so that they begin to frighten themselves moreso than the book. This is how horror works.

    Look at Alien. It produced one of the greatest modern monsters with a minimum of explanation -- until that explanation became relevant to the viewer, and usually retroactively such as in the case of the life-cycle. That film reaches an apex in horror when the adult Alien claims its first victim. There's a bit of a reveal there, because, as an audience, we finally get an inkling of what we're up against. But we don't understand it.
  • You can change. You can.
    Personally, I think the unknown is a bit overrated compared to the unstoppable. But it's because the unstoppable is rather overused in horror and it now seems like a cheap trick.
  • edited 2011-07-11 16:57:59
    Belief
    Death is unstoppable Juan, are you afraid of it?

    Or are you afraid of the things you can't do because of what death brings?

    I had a post similar to Madass ~highfive~ but he put it better than me >_>
  • One foot in front of the other, every day.
    The thing is that "unstoppable" can become a matter of subjectivity.

    Everyone is equally vulnerable to the unknown, but unstoppable is relative to the protagonist.
  • You're an Ass Alex,

    A Mad Ass.

    >_>, but yeah, I'll just parrot what you have to say now... Squack.
  • One foot in front of the other, every day.
    -receives your high five-
  • Look, I don't mind when the monster is unknown. It's when the characters know no more about it at the ending, than they did at the beginning, that annoys me.
  • But Chagen, the monster isn't the story, It's just a device.
  • I generally like horror better when the "monster" is an actual human.
  • You can change. You can.
    Death is unstoppable Juan, are you afraid of it?

    I don't see what's so illogical about being afraid of death. I'm not really scared of it so much as scared of the implications, but yeah.

    Everyone is equally vulnerable to the unknown, but unstoppable is relative to the protagonist. 

    Knowledge can be relative to the protagonist. My point is that when something is unstoppable, it's supposed to be in-universe unstoppable (I.E The protagonist can't stop him)

    That's why slashers started nicely. Because Michael Myers combined both the unknown and the unstoppable aspects of fear. However, the formula was exploited and constantly used by hack writers and now it seems like nothing like that can be done without being called a hack. Which is sad, really.
  • edited 2011-07-11 17:10:46
    Belief
    But Juan, Unstoppable isn't actually used in that sense.

    Only the unknown.

    I understand where you are coming from, and I agree, but that's not the actual use of "Unstoppable" that's the illusion of unstoppable, which still relies on the unknown.
  • You can change. You can.
    Well, tell me, how come Mikey Mike is still killing? That sounds like unstoppable to me...
  • One foot in front of the other, every day.
    A part of any horror is syncing the limitations of the audience and the protagonists, though. And that's why the unknown is always more effective than the unstoppable. A part of why Alien is so effective is because of this. It bleeds acid, so you can't kill it in a fragile environment or up close. It's super-strong. It looks scary. But we don't know it's rationale, or whether we've seen its limitations or just an inkling of its power.

    Its this combination of factors that make the Alien both frightening and intriguing. By the middle of The Terminator, for instance, we know the machine's intellectual process. Michael Myers is restricted by human limitations. The Predator turns out to be an ugly dude with a nasty gun.

    But the Alien and his grandpappy Dracula aren't just powerful, they're a mystery.




  • And Madass is becoming one of my new favorite Posters :3


  • Chagen in regards to this I must quote Alfred Hitchcock "There is nothing more frightening then an unopened door".
  • One foot in front of the other, every day.
    Thank you. :3
  • Also, @Madass >_>

    Dracula being the grandpa to Aliens made me laugh for a second XD
  • The novel was also an early use of Buffy Speak.
  • You can change. You can.
    Michael Myers is restricted by human limitations.

    Such as, you know, falling from a fifth floor and shruging it away like nobody's busniess and being semi-immortal...

     The Predator turns out to be an ugly dude with a nasty gun. 

    I dunno, I found him way more terrifying when it was him and Ahnold alone in that last one stand. Which gets me to the real point that I'm trying to make

    Fear is the most subjective thing in history. Some people would welcome something unknown and go all "Let's investigate this fucker out. :D" others would shit their pants. Something unstoppable normally makes people shit their pants, but fools and brave people just think "Oh, fuck yes! Something to stop" 

    And trying to input to it a criteria to it beyond subjectivity is just the epitome of silly, in my opinion.


  • edited 2011-07-11 17:27:58
    One foot in front of the other, every day.
    (Lovecraft's beasties are the older cousins.)

    The Predator was certainly a thing, but it was a monster that held back. I don't fear the Predator, because without weapons I'm not good sport. It's a prime example of having a rift between the audience and the protagonists instead of bringing them closer together.

    As for Mike, he still has to walk and is still subject to physical forces and the like. He's too human to truly be considered something "unstoppable" -- it's the fear of extended conflict in the protagonists that make him strong rather than his own innate abilities.
  • One foot in front of the other, every day.
    Although I will admit that I see Mike a little differently, as I do most horror/thriller antagonists who are essentially human. Martial arts will do that.
  • @Juan, fear may be subjective, but if you knew every single ability that Michael had, why would you fear him?

    You'd only fear him for the possibility of dieing, which isn't a fear of Michael, but a fear of dieing.

  • edited 2011-07-11 17:34:18
    One foot in front of the other, every day.
    And what informs the subjectivity is how closely the audience identifies with the protagonist.

    Fail that and you've got nothin'.

    From my perspective, Mike is only scary because I'm unaware of his limitations. I know ways to fight a dude into submission or make a quick kill, even without a sword, but I'd want to know if I'm wasting my time on it. That's still a step or two more than the people he targets, though, so already there's that distance between audience and protagonist. Although that isn't the fault of the filmmakers.
  • I never identify with the protagonist.

    Mainly because horror protagonists are some of the most fucking retarded people ever.
  • edited 2011-07-11 17:37:18
    Belief
    ^^ Hmmm, Fear that Michael may be unstoppable?

    That seems more realistic to me, you try to test the limits of your audience.

    "Michael Myers got shot in the face and he's still walking"

    But then t
  • edited 2011-07-11 17:37:05
    One foot in front of the other, every day.
    ^^ I know I'm harping, but you should watch Alien if its memetic status hasn't ruined it for you already.

    ^ Even then, bullets have their limitations. Can Mike keep going with a twisted and broken neck? And limbs? Bullets have a status in media as being the be-all and end-all of wounds, but one can do worse with their hands or a close-combat weapon.
  • You can change. You can.
     but if you knew every single ability that Michael had, why would you fear him?

    Because he has a machete and he's chasing me and he can kill me?

     but if you knew every single ability that Michael had, why would you fear him?

    I don't fear death. I fear murder. There's a difference.
  • edited 2011-07-11 17:41:37
    Belief
    "Because he has a machete and he's chasing me and he can kill me?"

    He would be nothing more than a disease that has the chance to kill you if you don't take precautions against it.

    ^^ I'm saying that for the horror to work Alex,

    It can be played for horror that Michael may actually be unstoppable.
  • One foot in front of the other, every day.
    Yeah, machete-dude-chasing-you can essentially be any genre. It's not Mike-specific, either.

    A man's just a man.
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