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Gelzo

I just think it's kind of silly to decide against allowing something because we're imagining everyone else to have a low maturity level. Besides, the banhammer exists for a reason.

Nova

 Of course, those threads represent a huge risk, and I honestly don't see the userbase being ready for it.

Mainly this, honestly.

All Nines

Hmm . . . Gelzo and Juan have made good points that I agreed with in the first place, and as I've said before, I mostly stamped out the complaining was because I've seen mods do it before I was even a mod (I think).

With that being said, I'm not sure that IJBM is ready for such a thing either, and I'm also not so sure if banning someone as one of the earlier courses of action is right.

But I think we should do it anyway, but we should make it quite clear within the rules how it should work, and post it in the first thread or two that might cross a line, because I'm not so much of a pushover that I'll let someone off the hook after I've warned them explicitly, and I think people will wisen up once the consequences feel more real.

That was such a pain to type by iPhone.

LouieW

Bob,
I would be all for such threads if they just highlighted why said
person's posts were disruptive or not conductive to discussion, but such
threads rarely end up like this, with most of the people posting in
said threads simply bashing the person without really being open about
what about them is so infuriating.

While I would not support such threads regardless, I agree with you about the problem they tend to present. I feel like user feuds cause forum drama more than pretty much anything else. I also think talking about people's annoying habits or "calling them out" almost always only encourages those feuds.

I agree with Gelzo about this being about maturity, but I differ with that troper as to where I see that lack of maturity. I think the whole idea of having negative topics about other tropers/IJBMers is itself immature and childish.

I believe that airing one's grievances in a forum such as this one is a poor way to deal with them, especially when the subject does not even post here. I think that communities like this one function best when people agree to get along. I can understand wanting to help someone that you think is going about that the wrong way, but I think that communicating with him or her via PM is the better option. It seems to me that making threads about a person will probably only make him or her become defensive if anything.

MillerCross

While I would not support such threads regardless, I agree with you about the problem they tend to present. I feel like user feuds cause forum drama more than pretty much anything else. I also think talking about people's annoying habits or "calling them out" almost always only encourages those feuds. 

I feel it depends on how you do it. Calling someone on their bullshit is not necessarily bad, as long as you're able to do it in a respectful fashion and make them understand that they have a problem. However, this is not about calling people on their problems and whatnot, this is about venting your grievances and problems. This is what this forums was mde for, to discuss stuff that annoys us, and have different POVs thrown at us so we can either learn more about why are we irrationally annoyed (If we are) or simply to discuss that annoyance.

I agree with Gelzo about this being about maturity, but I differ with that troper as to where I see that lack of maturity. I think the whole idea of having negative topics about other tropers/IJBMers is itself immature and childish. 

The subject in question is immature, I'll admit, but we discuss a lot of immature stuff, and we do discuss it in a childish fashion. I believe, that if we trust our userbase, then things will go fine, but only if we encourage them to move towards the attitudes that would make for a better, more entertaining forum (This is, civility, respect, but no silencing of one's opinions) 

I believe that airing one's grievances in a forum such as this one is a poor way to deal with them, especially when the subject does not even post here. I think that communities like this one function best when people agree to get along. I can understand wanting to help someone that you think is going about that the wrong way, but I think that communicating with him or her via PM is the better option. It seems to me that making threads about a person will probably only make him or her become defensive if anything. 

Tthe problem with this kind of thinking is that it implies that we all can somehow get along. Talking to people won't always fix a problem. And honestly, the threads in question won't either, but sometimes, we need to talk about the people we don't know, whether because of the fact they annoy us, or because there might be some product out of such a conversation. I know this is not the strongest argument I have, but I believe that discussin people that annoy us is valid, as long as we're respectful about it. And I think that if our userbase is willing to follow the rules, then everything will be fine.

glennmagusharvey

I personally think that such threads could be allowed by we moderators would have to keep a close eye on them, AND the people whose habits/quirks are being discussed/criticzed should be invited to both read and join in the conversation about them.  Of course, one problem with this is that it creates a lot of moderation work, since there are AHEM, A DARN LOT OF USERS who are unable to avoid petty sniping and thus actually stay on topic without using generalized character-bashing against the users whose quirks are in question.

This was the position I'd taken early on when this forum was created.

Should this be changed?  I'm not sure, to be honest, and I appreciate that we're actually having a dialogue about this.

MillerCross

I'm willing to concede that we are not perfect and that we're hardly the most mature and rule-following userbase ever.

However, I think that that the moment we start to ban subjects, it is the moment we start losing the only real draw this place has (Variety)

Also, I'm willing to send invitations/links/what have you to any user who has a thread dedicated to them if the moderation requires it.

LouieW

Juan_Carlos,
However, this is not about calling people on their problems and whatnot,
this is about venting your grievances and problems. This is what this
forums was made for, to discuss stuff that annoys us, and have different
POVs thrown at us so we can either learn more about why are we
irrationally annoyed (If we are) or simply to discuss that annoyance.

I think the main issue here is that while venting one's grievances and problems about other users in threads has few benefits (if any), it poses a significant risk of causing drama which I think will only make problems that currently exist even worse. I agree that this forum is made for discussing stuff that annoys us, but I think that is meant to be done respectfully.

I do not believe that making threads for the sole purpose of venting about other users can ever really fall into the category of respectfulness. I also do not think this is really related to trusting our userbase since I believe that users here should be able to be have plenty of good discussions without needing to insult people and such.

The rules already state that one should try to deal with personal disputes in private so I think that your argument about this being okay if people just follow the rules is a weak one. I think that this rule would just be a logical extension of both the spirit of the rules and the actual rules as they are written now. I could probably understand your argument better if you want the rules to be reformed in general, but I think that what I am proposing is very similar to the rules as they are now.

If you really want to complain about other users, you can always do so with your buddies through PMs or on a chatroom somewhere else. I do not recommend doing that anyway, but I do not think that having this rule will take away people's rights or anything. That being said,  I would be open to a compromise that allows troper-based complaint topics to be created if the troper in question created them.

However, I think that that the moment we start to ban subjects, it is
the moment we start losing the only real draw this place has (Variety)

Still, I think that it would be regrettable if this forum gets a reputation as a place where people run off to in order to complain about people who have wronged them on TV Tropes. I am fine with having banned tropers here, but I feel like having that kind of reputation would probably limit the amount of people coming here from TV Tropes and ultimately limit the appeal of this site altogether.

Bob

It's not complaining about other users so much as complaining about faults said users have. I think such threads would be okay both if the posters complaining could do so in a respectful manner (by which I mean, pointing out why the action of the user in question is annoying and not going after the user themselves) and if the user who's actions are being complained about can either give their point without taking the thread personally, if that makes sense. The thing is that many people think they'd be able to do this and probably could for a while, but it can be hard to keep tempers from flaring in such threads (which is funny when the thing that would keep tempers from rising would be for the posters to behave as I said, focusing on the flaw itself and not the poster, so I guess this is circular logic, and for that I'm sorry).

MillerCross

Oh, Bobby. why do you have to say what I think so well?

Nova

The less frequently used warnings PNSFW (Probably/Possibly Not Safe for Work), LSFW (Less Safe for Work), TSFW (Technically Safe for Work), and PNFO (Probably Not for the Office) are sometimes used to indicate content possibly considered salacious (lustful) by certain censors, such as images of underwear or swimwear models, or a news story about sexual issues that does not contain explicit images.

Just bringing this to attention. This is another category; it's the sort of thing that isn't covered under our NSFW rules, but should be thought about carefully nonetheless.

Vorpy

I will declare this now. If there is a problem with me just send me a PM, and don't make a thread about it. Ever.

I don't like giving assholes a pedestal to stand on when it comes to allowing them to namecall and mock me in an attempt to "explain exactly what is wrong with you" or to fascinate/entertain everyone by bashing me in the main forum, when a PM is perfectly fine to let me know what I am doing wrong. About the only thing to be gained by making a "Calling Out Vorpy" thread is to let a dickheaded attention whore encourage plenty of people to fling shit at me and then abandon the thread as soon as I pop up.

MillerCross

^ Duly noted.

That said, you don't fit the criteria of discussion here (As you're not a TvT-only poster)

Gelzo

Y'all are free to make a thread bitching about me.

Of course, that might not be the bravest thing for me to say seeing as how I don't expect anyone to care enough to do so except for as a joke, but I'll stand by it.

Forzare

Y'all are free to make a thread bitching about me.

Of
course, that might not be the bravest thing for me to say seeing as how
I don't expect anyone to care enough to do so except for as a joke, but
I'll stand by it.

DYRE

Y'all are free to make a thread bitching about me.

Of course, that might not be the bravest thing for me to say seeing as how I don't expect anyone to care enough to do so except for as a joke, but I'll stand by it.

Stormtroper

Y'all are free to make a thread bitching about me.
Of
course, that might not be the bravest thing for me to say seeing as how
I don't expect anyone to care enough to do so except for as a joke, but
I'll stand by it.

DYRE

(it amuses me that the quote was formatted differently each time that it was quoted)

Nova

I'd prefer it if people took their problems up with me personally, but I can deal.

MillerCross

I don't really care, to be perfectly honest. But if you have a problem with me, then I'd prefer to discuss it myself. So, thread or message box is the same to me. 

Bob

Y'all are free to make a thread bitching about me.

Of course, that might not be the bravest thing for me to say seeing as how I don't expect anyone to care enough to do so except for as a joke, but I'll stand by it. Hell, I don't even care if you're joking or not. In fact, if you're thinking of sending me a PM over some issue you have with me, just make a thread. No I'm not joking, certain PMs freak me out.

Vorpy

-Sends a creepy eRape PM to Bob-

MillerCross

...I want one too. :<

Forzare

I never get creepy PMs...

Nova

I do. I wish I didn't.

Bob

Trust me guiz, they're not as fun as they seem.

...Unless they're from Vorpy or Vivi.

Or me. >;3

LouieW

Yeah, I think I will concede the argument at this point. I may have my own reasons for wanting that rule change, but I think that there has been enough strong opposition to it that having it would mean going against what a good number of other people want. Since this is obviously not my personal forum, I would not want to do something that others would really dislike solely based on a personal preference.

I think that this discussion was worth having though. Still, I guess I would like to take back my suggestion now if that is okay.

Gelzo

Louie, even if you're in the minority your opinion isn't any less valid. You're a user here too and deserve just as much say as what goes on as any one of us. (Except maybe GMH by virtue of his creating the site in the first place.)

Bob

Louie, even if you're in the minority your opinion isn't any less valid. You're a user here too and deserve just as much say as what goes on as any one of us. (Except maybe GMH by virtue of his creating the site in the first place.)

MillerCross

We may disagree, Louie, but you can indeed help to make this...new...rule, movement, whatever work if you add your input to it.