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Comments
I definitely enjoyed it, particularly the entire 80s anime aesthetic.
DIO!DIO!DIO!DIO!DIO!DIO!DIO!DIO!
LIKE A RAINBOW IN THE DAAAAAAAARK!
So I think everyone should probably watch The Twelve Kingdoms.
I think I already did, dubbed into spanish even.
I liked the first arc, but I didn't keep up with it after that. I keep meaning to read the light novels.
Watching Mulholland Drive.
Let me just say, for a supposedly yuri animu, this has been too light on lesbians.
So, I've been binging SA's Madoka thread, and, while I always had a high opinion of the show, I'm now convinced that it's legitimately a work of genius. As much as I like One Piece and K-On!, neither of them have made me think this much. I never realized just how much was going on--in the visuals, the writing, the symbolism, the callbacks, the philosophical questions that people come to while they're waiting for next week's episode, and even the references to the works/writers that inspired it.
I wouldn't go so far, it is certainly good, if not great, but I don't think it's as clever as it looks.
http://safebooru.org/index.php?page=post&s=view&id=922929
Someone's gettin' an ass-kickin' soon.
^^ What makes you say that, out of curiosity? Maybe it's because I'm coming off of over 40 pages of a thread about it, and I was inattentive on the first viewing or something, but there's really a ton going on in Madoka.
I think I'm with vandro on this one. I mean, there's a lot you can read into it, but I don't think it speaks of the craft of the writer's per se so much as the fact that it's a very simple yet highly resonant story.
Oh good, I was starting to think it was only me. <_<
Mind you, goons are generally fairly good at picking up on a lot of subtle things. Couple weeks ago, I binged on their Brandon Sanderson thread, and they pointed out some stuff about his books even I'd missed.
But I don't think that Madoka is a work of genius, unless I missed a whole lot of stuff, and I don't think I could have missed that much.
I don't even know what I would call genius, but I will say that Madoka is probably one of the most solid stories I've ever seen. Things are stacked together and nothing really felt out of place.
Many things in the show rubbed against my sensibilities, but I will agree that it was a solid show.
It requires more than that for a story to be called genius, though. I don't think I've seen anything that I would call genius yet.
Simple, side characters were mere plot devices and main characters were puppets in "LET'S MAKE THESE CHARACTERS SUFFER" play, and that broke my suspension of disbelief. Also, Homura's devotion to Madoka felt almost stalkerish and when finally explained, completely unfounded. She broke time for the sake of someone who wasn't her friend for more than a month. That's taking things really out of proportion.
I always thought of Homura as sort of broken (Before the whole timeshit and meeting Madoka herself, I mean), which actually adds more to her character. But then again, that is dwelling on the realm of supposed implication and only madness lies that way.
Also, Madoka has almost no character growth during the series, while the time shenanigans explain why, it doesn't magically give her character growth either.
I couldn't really enjoy the show as much as I wanted to, because of some of the themes within it (Don't wish to have somebody's hand fixed if you just want it to be fixed so you can date him, because he doesn't want to date you and that's a terrible thing and nothing good at all came about because his hand was fixed!) but that's more of a me thing, and it just annoyed me even when it didn't really do anything bad to the show.
As a matter of taste, or a matter of "okay, why is this?"
Damn. Here I was thinking that I ran a harsh standard. What would it take for you to call a work "genius", then?
In the sense that a character a plot device by definition, sure. I didn't feel that any characters were merely there to move the plot along. I mean, yeah, they were, but if they weren't they'd be wasting our time, and what's more, I was able to feel for them, which is more than I can say for a fair number of other things I've read/seen.
Wait, what? It might help to look at the story as a test of faith, both in-universe and in what it asks of the viewer, rather than just a story that's depressing for the sake of it. The story was very bittersweet, but things did end on a better note than they started on, and nothing was wasted in getting there. Things were just very morbid in getting there, because a story like that has great potential for morbidity.
I can't remember the exact details of the first time loop, but I'd imagine it was enough to come to care for that person, especially given the types of people that the main characters were.
Well, yeah, the plot wouldn't work if the main characters weren't teenagers, and therefore prone to lapses in judgment. That's half the point of the show; it was able to move along because they were both too naive to ask the important questions, and in states of emotional duress. This is essentially where the criticism of magical girl works lies--it's rather disturbing to think that girls that young could really have the right of it, getting into a situation like that, and Kyubey's that much better as a villain because, in spite of not really "getting" human emotions, he knows them well enough to manipulate impressionable young girls.
o
Fair enough.
I would disagree. I mean, maybe we don't see her do much but cry and ask Kyubey why he's so cruel
(／人◕ ‿‿ ◕人＼), but she learns reluctance, and she eventually learns to ask the right questions, in spite of being afraid. And we see that she's lucky because she gets that chance.
I think I remember that being true, as well.
Bah, what's the fun in fiction if we're not allowed to speculate and come to our own conclusions?
Sayaka's whole debacle bothered me not because the lesson it taught but because it was an idiot play. Sayaka not declaring her feelings when given an ultimatum made me facepalm and her muggle friend having a crush on violin boy came out of nowhere.
See my post just above. It's a matter of taste for the most part.
Okay, I have to ask: What are we supposed to be having faith in?
For me... It must be not only technically perfectly executed, which is near-impossible on its own, it must also either bring something new or play with an existing thing in a way that is rarely done, plus it must not have questionable themes and all that jazz.
Of everything I've read/watched, ever, things like Fullmetal Alchemist and Sanderson's Mistborn trilogy come closest to being works of genius, but even they fall short of the mark in several respects.
Violin boy, the muggle friend, sayaka herself, Mami, Kyubei's whole Raison d'Etre is to move the plot along.
A friend for a month over the whole universe over ten times: Taking things out of proportion no matter how you look at it.
Not really. The plot happens to the characters, not the other way around, after all.
That's not really an argument for a work being "genius", though. I could simply say that I felt this was more resonant than that but it doesn't tell me anything about the actual craft involved in any other level except that it might be better or worse than some other stuff that another person read who didn't found those things resonant themselves.
If we even add it up, she wasn't her friend more than 1/10th of the story!
My point is more that it's a lazy argument for Madoka's quality in terms of characterizations rather than it being an invalid speculation. (After all, no speculation is really invalid when it comes to fiction provided the text doesn't prove it to be fake)
One does not learn reluctance. It's like learning not to speak. But then I ask: why does asking the right questions means you grow as a character?
Okay, I have to disagree here. A plot which relies on its characters being idiots doesn't really make for a work of genius. Although maybe I'm just stupid and that makes it even more brilliant, I don't know. I'd like to think I'm not stupid, though.
As a criticism of the magical girl genre, it works to a degree- although I will point out that the plot of Madoka only works because of the differences between itself and most magical girl shows, and if those differences were introduced into those other shows, they would end up being a lot like Madoka itself.
A lot of it ended up feeling like darkness for the sake of making Madoka a dark show. The end fixed a lot of that, but before that, it didn't really feel like all that great a criticism on magical girl shows, and it doesn't stand so well on its own without keeping that in mind.
When I first watched it, I would have agreed with you.
Now, though, I don't, so much.
Homura's reaction was overboard, yeah, but after a point, the question boiled down to "What else could Homura even do?" She can't stop, as it would render everything she's done meaningless. She has nobody else to lean on- she's not shown to have any parents, she just got out of hospital sick from heart disease, and she's bloody dead, and that's not even mentioning the fact that she's a Puella Magi now.
It's like, yes, her original reaction was overboard, and ties into my earlier complaint about it not feeling natural and relying on Homura being an idiot. After that, though, her characterization makes perfect sense.
I don't see how characters being idiots makes for a work being weak or stronger. (After all, the earliest example of drama involve characters failing to notice obvious stuff and making rash decisions)
It's when the plot pretends the characters are not idiots who make wrong decisions when shit is up.
I didn't mean for that itself to be an indicator of genius. I was just offering a rebuttal against vandro's comment.
Okay, I'll clarify: main characters. Kyousuke and Hitomi were basically plot devices, yeah, but even then, I can accept Hitomi's confession coming out of nowhere, as someone who's often outside of the lives of the people around me, and as someone who's often blindsided by recent developments. Maybe the series just speaks more heavily to me, then.
Faith in the idea that things can and will get better, even with as bleak and soul-crushing as they are now. We see terrible things happen to people who don't deserve it, but we have just enough bright spots that we keep watching because there's someone here who can change things, given the right push, and we want to see that happen.
But how familiar was she with the rest of the universe? I won't argue that Homura was being selfish, or that her view of the situation was misproportioned, but I don't know if that really counts against her, all things considered.
I feel like this is edging too close to that plot vs. characters debate we've already had a bunch of times, but I guess I'll clarify: the main characters--the characters we have the time to engage with--were more, to me, than just people who were affected the plot and moved it forward; they were individuals in their own rights. If that makes sense. And maybe it is just me.
Fair enough. I'll grant that it might just be me who's seeing everything here and finding resonance--maybe it's genius according to my sensibilities. I mean, I've outright dismissed TTGL, which is considered to be excellent by many people.