I want to join Something Awful now

Myrmidon · 2011-08-02 04:52:57

And the SA thread is still going on with this bizarre idea that no one on TvTropes ever reads.

Counterclock · 2011-08-02 05:03:46

@Myrmidon.

Good for them?

Myrmidon · 2011-08-02 05:08:03

We're not all Deboss.

Forzare · 2011-08-02 05:09:11

I like reading :<

Counterclock · 2011-08-02 05:10:36

Has your loud proclamations stating this fact changed any of their minds anyway?

I'm honest, do they listen to you when you try to point out the incorrectness of their hyperboling?

The_Edge · 2011-08-02 08:11:57

I am glad I don't run in the SA and TV Tropes circles. Geez! Seems like my odds of not getting banned improve by 10% for not frequently those sites.

Crimson · 2011-08-02 09:04:41

^^They just go "But Tropers do X, they completely deserve everything we say about them", whenever someone points out they're generalizing. Also guilt by association.

MillerCross · 2011-08-02 09:24:38

Meh, I just skip those.

Katrika · 2011-08-02 11:22:21

'Is there a way to see if a visitor to SA has TVT login cookies? If it
detects that someone has a TVT account, they can only post in a special
subforum for us to watch and laugh at.'

This. This idea makes me angry.

Nova · 2011-08-02 11:23:32

Fairly sure that's a joke.

Nova · 2011-08-02 11:33:03

I wonder if the IJBM thread knows that picking on the worst members/aspects of TVT is the whole point of this thread. Kind of a way of saying "this is what we don't like, this is what things would be better about". I wasn't aware that anyone was saying "all tropers suck", more "TVTropes sucks because of this". Also, their thread can bitch and whine as much as they want, but books not in the sci-fi/fantasy genre are hilariously under-represented there, whereas I can find at least a 20 trope page on whatever new anime comes out almost within minutes of it airing. In Japan.

They are.

I do not know enough about most works to add them though.

MillerCross · 2011-08-02 11:38:34

´That problem could be easily fixed if you, you know, started editing yourself.

the thing about TvT is that there's a "I don't know how to start a page" mentality by which many a editor refuses to make a page about a work they know and love becase they feel they're bad redactors. This could be easily fixed if many of them visited Wiki Talk and asked for help or PM'd a mod or something, but they instead keep it to themselves. Or in the SA case, just use it as another reason for mockery.

ClockworkUniverse · 2011-08-02 11:38:35

One reason why non-sci-fi/fantasy works are underrepresented is that there are thousands of sci-fi/fantasy tropes that works not in those genres simply can't use, ever.

glennmagusharvey · 2011-08-02 11:44:07

> 'Is there a way to see if a visitor to SA has TVT login cookies? If it
detects that someone has a TVT account, they can only post in a special
subforum for us to watch and laugh at.'

hatersgonnahate.png

Scrye2 · 2011-08-02 11:45:47

And yet all those sci-fi/fantasy works draw from the other literary genres and archetypes. Star Wars, anyone?

ClockworkUniverse · 2011-08-02 11:46:48

Well, yeah. So they get normal tropes and SF&F tropes, and as a result they get a lot more traffic on the wiki about tropes.

Katrika · 2011-08-02 11:48:22

Ehhhh...alright. I'm going to address some of the best points they make, because they make good ones.

Troper Tales: It's a fucking cesspool, and not even the amusing kind. Just...urgh.

On a related note, tropers self identifying as 'cool' tropes such as Deadpan Snarker and Yandere: It's fucking stupid, and those tropes were never meant to apply to people in real life, either. Plus, a real life Yandere would be terrifying and massively unstable, and any real life deadpan snarkers are not going to identify themselves as such, because if you're really that witty, you don't NEED to advertise it. Another bad part of TvTropes.

The imbalance between pages related to things popular in pop culture and pages relating to just as good or better other things, and sci-fi/fantasy: Honestly, they're right about this too, and it's annoying. NOT to say that manga and anime are inherently bad, as there's many I enjoy and I've recently been getting into the works of Osamu Tezuka, which are quite insightful. But most of the things underrepresentated on TV Tropes aren't even OBSCERE. Compare the length of the pages for 'The Anime Which Must Not Be Named' and Lolita, which despite being the trope codifier for the lolicon genre also massively deconstructs the concept and shows just how DIRTY it is.

Relating more directly to the SA thread, I don't believe you guys are cherry picking at all. If you'll forgive me for applying a trope to the situation on TV Tropes, I think Sturgeon's Law most definately applies. 90% of the highly visible stuff on Troper tales (maybe 100% for Troper Tales) and the TVT forums are crap. Doesn't mean the worthwhile 10% isn't in there.

If it's not too much trouble, I'd like to read a reply to this post on your thread, which I'm following with fascination.

MillerCross · 2011-08-02 11:48:45

One reason why non-sci-fi/fantasy works are underrepresented is that there are thousands of sci-fi/fantasy tropes that works not in those genres simply can't use, ever.

So? It just means less tropes. But that seems like less excuse for having a page. not to mention that we still have loads of tropes about meta fiction and the like.

ClockworkUniverse · 2011-08-02 11:51:19

I did say "one" reason. I don't doubt that fandom's involved too.

MillerCross · 2011-08-02 11:55:53

I never said that you said that was the whole reason. I'm just saying how invalid that line of thought is, imo.

there're many other relatively more valid reasons, such as popularity, easier access to the work and their creator's opinion and the like and most of them come with pop cultural popularity.

Yes, I think it's ridiculous that Lolita has less tropes and study than KNJ, but KNJ is far more recent and easier to...um...shall we say, study? I dunno. But making a complete page around Lolita (This is, around all the namespaces) needs both a massive fandom and staying power, and while Lolita has the second, it doesn't have the first. At least, not in TvT. Why? I could go on endless reasons why, really, but it boils down to how intimidating can editing the wiki be.

Scrye2 · 2011-08-02 11:57:01

I don't think it helps that a vast majority of the tropes on TV Tropes..... aren't tropes! The Lord of the Flies isn't going to have some crap like Meganekko in it, not because it didn't have some kid with glasses, it did, but because Meganekko isn't a trope, it's a entry made because tropers wanted to gush about their favorite glasses-wearing character in anime and manga.

I think this is more in tune with what the goons are talking about, but if I'm wrong, let me know.

Elbeem · 2011-08-02 11:57:08

As I mentioned earlier in the the thread, Wiki-groaning is related to a simple fact of life: most people are going to want to talk about what they are most interested in, and for the majority of people those interests are going to lie with some form of current popular culture. If this were something that only happened on TVTropes, it would be a fair criticism. But that's not even close to being the case.

For example, just looking at the first page of the Something Awful Book Barn list of discussions, I see threads on Harry Potter, Stephen King, Terry Pratchett, The Dresden Files, A Song of Ice And Fire, and what appear to be several general threads on Science Fiction, Fantasy, and Horror. Not a whole lot of Dickens and Shakespeare representation there.

My point is not that this makes Something Awful a terrible site filled with terrible people, but that it's a simple reflection of the kinds of works that the internet-age public are most familiar with and want to talk about.

Further, there's really no way to fix something like that when even Wikipedia, the wiki with the strict notability policies, has the same exact issue. I mean, we could make a rule that says "No talking about Dr. Who!", but it would serve no purpose but to lose the readership of those who are primarily Dr. Who fans, with no appreciable gains in readership to offset such a move.

MillerCross · 2011-08-02 12:00:53

I don't think it helps that a vast majority of the tropes on TV Tropes..... aren't tropes! The Lord of the Flies isn't going to have some crap like Meganekko in it, not because it didn't some kid with glasses, it did, but because Meganekko isn't a trope, it's a entry made because tropers wanted to gush about their favorite glasses-wearing character in anime and manga.

I think that''s also part of the problem. There're many tropes that I don't think qualify as tropes.

Girls wearing glasses? Gee, who da thunk that'd happen.

The_Edge · 2011-08-02 12:00:59

This is worse than listening to NPR when they talk about the Debt Ceiling.

MillerCross · 2011-08-02 12:01:28

Then don't listen and go do something else instead of talking to the radio?

Scrye2 · 2011-08-02 12:03:19

@Elbeem: I don't think Something Aweful's mission statement is to catalog literary tropes and cliches found in all forms of media, new or old. That's exactly what TV Tropes claims to do, but instead, it's become a fanpage. Even Fast Eddy admits they're only supposed to like stuff on the wiki.

ClockworkUniverse · 2011-08-02 12:03:31

I'd say "girls wearing glasses" is probably tropeable in that the creator has to make a conscious decision to make that part of their character design.

Now, the amount of interest that page gets is vastly disproportionate to its importance.

^We're not actually supposed to gush about stuff there either, but hating gets harder crackdowns because it tends to start shit.

The_Edge · 2011-08-02 12:03:46

^^^Talking to the radio? Who's talking to the radio?

MillerCross · 2011-08-02 12:12:26

^^^Talking to the radio? Who's talking to the radio?

It's a metaphor. My point is, that if you don't like the thread and its subject, then there's no point in posting.

Vorpy · 2011-08-02 12:15:44

People Sitting On Chairs is the best/worst argument to make to kill off all Realistic Fiction tropes. I thought of a couple concerning Scout on To Kill a Mockingbird, but since they were just "People Sitting on Chairs", and not outstanding enough (although scouts interaction and behavior with Atticus IS a trope since that is a very important gear in the story on Mockingbird anyway) my YKTTW got discredited.

In general, I would add more to the TKAMB page....if the others would just let me...

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