Dark Lady Celebrian

notwithstanding

So you're saying that the when people do say "DLC, you're a crazy psychopath", they're most likely doing it out of pureherted concern for DLC's mental health?

I must have missed these posts; I was referring to several very long-running and divisive threads which began by calling out the troper community for doing nothing to discourage her delusions. Some people questioned her mental health outright, but most would argue the finer points of soulbonding with her in a misguided attempt to make her see sense.

LouieW

Notwithstanding,
You
realize that this is not, in fact, an explanation? You're skeptical
because you don't take people's posts in good faith. How about you not
assume what people's intent is?

I can understand that you might not buy my argument and that is fine. If you are looking for more support for my argument then what I said about public shaming probably works. I guess what I was trying to say was that if one really had the other person's best interest in mind, one would try to privately work with that person on his or her problems rather than complaining about him or her in a thread where everyone could see.

My basis for that claim is mainly the idea that people tend to respond defensively to what seems like public shaming. I believe that someone who honestly wanted to help another person would probably understand at least that risk and try to avoid it by discussing things with the person privately (in cases where they just did not know that their comments would lead to such behaviors then I definitely cut them some slack though). Additionally, I have rarely seen such criticism in threads achieve much of any kind of change. Based on that experience, I have a tough time accepting the idea that calling out people is often done to help them.

Now, you are right that I probably should not assume people's intents and I am sorry for acting like I am psychic enough to know why people do what they do.  However, I think that if people do not want to make it seem like their comments are driven by personal distaste for certain tropers, they should either PM the person in question rather than talking about those issues publicly or at least not complain about a troper where he or she is unlikely to see it.

notwithstanding

No true Scotsman, look it up.

You're also confusing what this thread is doing to how people actually went about criticizing Celebrian to her face.

LouieW

Notwithstanding,

No true Scotsman is an intentional logical fallacy, an ad hoc attempt to retain an unreasoned assertion. When faced with a counterexample to a universal claim, rather than denying the counterexample or rejecting the original universal claim, this fallacy modifies the subject of the assertion to exclude the specific case or others like it.

Sorry, but I am not so good with logical fallacies. Do you think you could explain to me how this relates to the present situation? I guess the part I am especially having trouble with is the "counterexample" part.

I guess it probably was not a good idea to present an argument if I do not know the basics like that though, sorry.

notwithstanding

I guess what I was trying to say was that if one really had the other person's best interest in mind, one would try to privately work with that person on his or her problems rather than complaining about him or her in a thread where everyone could see. 

You're assuming that having someone's best interests in mind produces the same pattern of thought and action in everyone.

LouieW

Notwithstanding,

I can kind of see your point, but I disagree, unfortunately. Looking back at my post, I thought I inserted a exception there.

I believe that someone who honestly wanted to help another person would
probably understand at least that risk and try to avoid it by discussing
things with the person privately (in cases where they just did not know
that their comments would lead to such behaviors then I definitely cut
them some slack though).

I guess my argument was kind of unclear. I am arguing that people should address a person privately if they honestly care about that person's best interests because it is more effective that way and because that makes it obvious that they do not just want to rant about a troper to someone else. What I just said is what I think should happen if one has the other person's best interest in mind.

I am also arguing that calling out a troper does not make it seem like one has that person's best interest in mind. Now, you make a good point when you say that not everyone thinks like that. I guess some people think that complaining about someone in a thread is a good way to get him or her to change. I just really disagree with that and I think I have explained the reasons why I believe that.

As for the edit you made on your second to last post, you are right. I am not particularly familiar with the troper in question. My original post in this thread was more about holding grudges and how I disliked the negative comments said in this thread about a troper who does not post here. The rest of the stuff was really about how I think people should deal with such incidents and how I believe incorrect methods have also been pursued.

I guess it was a mistake to enter into a conversation that I really did not understand, sorry.

TuefelHundenIV

The problem is DLC did not keep her stuff private she displayed it very publicly and loudly.

notwithstanding

Okay, Louie, then why didn't you just say from the beginning that you disagree with the method instead of ascribing all sorts of mala fide intentions to the people who utilize it? Also, I've no idea why you keep referring to "ranting" about people behind their backs when these threads or posts would be addressed to DLC, a then-active participator on the forum.

glennmagusharvey

> If you think that you can help someone's personal situation and really want to do so, I think you should prove that by approaching that person gently and trying to ease him or her into making a change. I believe that being harsh will not only make it seem like you are treating him or her irrationally, but will also probably make the other person get defensive and not listen to what you have to say.

This.

> On top of that, I'm sure that you are aware that Celebrian realized that her views were controversial, and purposefully fueled drama. It might be inappropriate to talk behind someone's back, but it's common fucking sense not to air your dirty laundry in public if you are that sensitive about being talked about.

Was this confirmed explicitly, or is this just your conclusion?  If it's the latter, then I am inclined to disagree.

> You're skeptical because you don't take people's posts in good faith.

Doing something in good faith doesn't mean that said something is done well or effectively.

> You're assuming that having someone's best interests in mind produces the same pattern of thought and action in everyone.

This too; some people don't know any better and keep trying to attack the moat after the drawbridge is up.

GuitarBizarre

Blah blah blah blah. God this thread is dull. DLC is a neurotic cunt entirely unable to face or for that matter adequately function in reality. Anyone attempting to argue her insane determination to believe the ridiculous and insane does not cause the majority of people, astute or dumb, to judge her harshly and negatively, is wrong. I'm not interested in hearing isolated examples of acceptance of soulbonding either, it should be patently obvious those are not typical reactions to being told someone thinks videogame characters are real and talk to someone. People as a whole the internet wide have both been nice to her as an attempt to help her see reason, and as in my case and many, many others, have also attempted to use brute force logic to address the issue. She has never once been able to even comprehend the opposite side, much less defend herself against it. She is loud and stupid about it, always has been, and will remain so until either death, horrific trauma, or therapy render the situation otherwise. And no, the stupid thing is not up for questioning. She has repeatedly shown not only ignorance of established facts relating to a wide array of subjects but wilful misinterpretation of them also, along with the fact that what conversations I've seen her engage in and have participated in involving her have shown a dramatically stunted vocabulary, less than stellar command of that weak vocabulary, and a lack of basic problem solving logical skills. All this while priding herself on the intelligence she believes she possesses. Har. Har.

Now my views are once again made clear I shall leave this thread alone while LouieW attempts to project his ridiculously overidealistic bullshit onto the situation while simultaneously repeating ad fucking nauseum that he's not an expert. No shit Sherlock, we could never have guessed that the man on the internet with the pathological need to appear as meek as possible in absence of any other personality traits worth mentioning, was not an accredited expert in the field of insane people on the internet. Our minds are fucking blown. Alert the media. Alternatively Louie, grow a spine or become an expert in something so that we dont have to read that damned self-sabotage copout getout clause ever again.

GLORIOUSLeader

u mad

Vorpy

Guitar Bizarre, a simple sentence would have been perfectly fine. Don't devote so much effort to something few people will take seriously other than you and those who agree with you.

snowbull

Myrm's hatecrush doesn't hold a candle to GB's.

GB♠DLC

Sammy

"what conversations I've seen her engage in and have participated in involving her have shown a dramatically stunted vocabulary"

I'm willing to bet that the average American teen doesn't know what "precludes" means. Her writing style was juvenile, but she wasn't illiterate or anything.

JBridge

ITT: butthurt

Hatter

Guitar Bizarre, I think I like you. In a completely heterosexual, platonic way.

Regardless of our motives for doing so, the act of calling someone out on their bullshit doesn't have to be justified, if there is in fact bullshit to be called out. And DLC is in the possession of several metric fucktons of bullshit. Some bullshit is amusing - Saddam's Minister of Information comes to mind - but in DLC's case, it's just disturbing. Someone needs to get her to see it.

GuitarBizarre

Sammy - > Implying that the average american teen isn't a dumbass

> also implying that the average american teen makes as big a deal out of their supposed intelligence as celebrian did.

Also you conveniently didn't quote the part where I pointed out her limited command of the limited language she did know, and you've tried to represent my point as "Celebrian didn't know what a word meant she's dumb" when it was actually "Celebrian makes a big deal out of how smart she thinks she is when she doesn't have a basic command of english"

Also, ever heard of google? She could easily have found a dictionary, or searched it, or even inferred from the context, what precludes meant in that particular exchange. Thats what I mean by 'lack of basic problem solving skills."

TheConductor

Dude, was there really any need to insult Louie like that?

GuitarBizarre

None whatsoever, unless you count "Self sabotaging your own arguments incessantly being really damned annoying and entirely non-conducive to debate since it only functions to either state the irrelevant if sincere, or to provide an easy way out of being confronted on your beliefs" as a reason.

InsanityAddict

Does this ragging not increase the likelihood of the person coming out of the woodwork to defend hirself?

Hatter

Actually, the more we rag on her, the more her restraint impresses me. If she doesn't show herself (or shows herself once more in order to renounce her fantasies) then my opinion of her will increase dramatically.

Chagen

Does she even know this forum exists?

I never saw her even on TvTropes, she was just a legend to be told to noobs like me to by the forum elders by then.

Hatter

I still fail to see why some people defend her. Sure, some of our criticism may be harsh, but one of my good TV Tropes friends called me "disgusting trash" for saying that I found DLC's fantasies to be creepy. Granted, she didn't know it was me, but still.

GuitarBizarre

> her

> restraint

You're kidding right? This is a girl who thought 'bounty hunter' was a viable career choice for an ugly overweight pasty white american girl, and went around claiming to be a superhero. Even her clothes don't know the meaning of restraint, such is the incompatibility of the two. Its probably the only reason she's not in a straightjacket.

Vorpy

She's too fat to fit into a regular straightjacket though.

Khwarizmi

See, this is why I usually ended up on her side.  True, her behaviour did turn other people against her, and she didn't seem to get why this was a bad idea.  But do the people criticising her really have to be such dicks about it?

Chagen

From what I see, Downloadable Content would refuse to listen to sense and was overall an annoying bitch.

At some point, you just can't help being a dick if the source of your rage is that aggravating.

Khwarizmi

But... it's just the Internet.  Why would you let her bother you that much?

Chagen

Some people take the Internet seriously.

Like me, sort of. The internet can be a place of serious conversation, I'm kinda sick of people acting like it can't be a big deal.

Vorpy

Kwharizmi, I said that as a person on the internet, not as a person who wanted to get to know her personally.

Hell, people like her would be completely undone by a person meeting them in real life since their entire charade is revolved around "you aren't here person to person to see what is going on". I don't know her, never met her, and generally, don't want to because all it would do is make me roll my eyes at everything she says.

She was like the astral projecting ghostlord minotaur furry I met in ND.