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Comments
That's pretty much what I think, yeah. It's not that we should take care of him (We even have that it isn't our duty to that in our rules) but simply that we could've been far more educated about it.
I understand that he was likely beyond our help. All the same, though, silence would have been better than the treatment he got.
As I said in a previous post, this isn't just about Draven -- it's about us, too. And we should hold ourselves to stronger conduct. Not necessarily for Draven, but for the sake of the community and us as individuals. After all, internet discussions are still practise at discussion, debate and conduct, even if they don't sync with the real world on a 1:1 scale.
So it's about us being better, too.
^ The other thing is that we can help passively. We don't have to put up with bullshit all the time, but by choosing to approach things with rationality and thought, we can only provide better commentary.
Or, even, anyone who was part of the group that tried to help him before he was banned (not saying any of us took it worse than Anne, of course; just making a point). That may very well be the last time I put so much effort into helping out someone who has a problem. I would have really loved to stay out of this thread for most of it and leave it to the mod team, but as one of the people on the mod team, I kinda had to evaluate what was in front of me and make a decision, even if it meant maybe prodding him towards some course of action. In the end, I simply decided that it wasn't meant to be.
I do have to say, Crimson, cool your head.
Look, there's a problem when your attitude and behaviour was the same as the person who was trying to get banned.
Yeah, same for me. Tnu just reinforced my opinion that it's almost always wasted effort to try and help people over the Internet unless you know them in real life.
Yeah, that is what I meant. After seeing how badly trying to help somebody can affect people, I really do not like the implication that there is any sort of responsibility on our behalf to help people, as it can affect us in turn.
It is times like this that remind me why I don't seek to make myself seem upstanding and try to join the mod team again. I really don't envy you.
I feel that it probably went so poorly because, on the one hand, no one really did know how to best handle it (or had a number of reasons for not seeking what may have been a better solution), but at the same time it really isn't something you can just allow to occur in your hangout, you know what I mean? I'm less critical of some in the incident (some; I can't excuse the behavior of some in this thread) because it was a tight spot to begin with.
I agree. What I'm trying to say is, it's not that we don't have an obligation to help him, but rather that we are not in any practical position to do so. Our banning him from here ultimately will mean nothing in the long run, as the only good help he can get is from people in his normal life, not from people on the internet.
And, I agree, lets dial down the hostility towards pedophiles as a generality. It is, insofar as I know, a mental disorder, and, while it's always disgusting, it isn't automatically morally wrong unless the pedophile in question acts like this guy and thinks its fine. If they want help, then they damn well deserve help, not assholishness. I wouldn't tell a man with disorganized schizophrenia to fuck himself because "ugh you hear voices you crazy fucker get away from me," even when he needs and is asking for help. Likewise, I wouldn't tell a pedophile to get away from me if they needed and wanted help, because that person obviously comprehends that they have a problem. It's if they think they need to defend their problem as normal that I should feel the need to be hostile.
Maybe you could argue that it's not as bad as being a dick to some random person, but it's still being a dick.
Yep.
This. The reason we banned him was not because he was a pedophile (who never acted on his fetishes), but because of his behavior and showing many Tnu-like traits.
Yes, the better way for that to be dealt with was probably with less people, and those who had more investment in making something vaguely positive out of it.
Perhaps there should be some kind of Pedo Protocol, or something that can be expanded to different things? Perhaps a temporary threadlock, PM from the mods, post deletion (or having the offending section deleted) and a reopening?
For instance, the PM might include the following points:
Or something to that effect.
Well, as I said, being an unrepentant pedophile should be grounds for banning from any upstanding forum. The qualifier is intensely important.
And like I said, repentant pedophiles don't gush about anime child porn in their first posts.
^^ One extra issue with Draven is that he was obviously in the bias confirming circle of pedophiles at TV Tropes. This is shaky ground. One on hand, some behaviour should not be tolerated. On the other, I'm not sure we should be judging people for behaviour established elsewhere but not necessarily in evidence here. Being in a social context that considers pedophilia a bad thing might break the cycle, for instance.
Which is a valid argument, except that he did in fact have tnu-ish qualities of being willing to say anything to avoid being cast out of the community. That, and he was talking about Otherkin, which, if it's what I think it is, speaks to much deeper social issues besides pedophilia...
The otherkin thing kind of just seemed like him being an awkward teenager on the internet. I know it sounds like a cliche to say "he'll outgrow it," but, well, he probably will.
I wouldn't say the Otherkin thing is necessarily that much of an issue. It's certainly strange, but it'd be a double-standard of me to accept mainstream religions as valid spiritual beliefs and not that.
Oh, wait, Otherkin aren't Soulbonders. Silly me, time to not comment.
Most sane people don't consider Scientology to be equally valid as other more sincere religions, and I wouldn't call that a double standard. I'd say this is much the same thing.
However, my point is, pedophilia isn't the only weird shit that kid's involved in, and I don't think we can chalk it all up to a mental disorder given that he said that his parents know he's a pedophile and yet he's not in counseling right now.
Eh. His Otherkind thing didn't seem like that big a problem, since he never did anything like HAI GUYS I'M AN OTHERKIN ISN'T THAT SPECIAL that would indicate it's anything inherently wrong with him, other than a really, really weird view that he'll probably grow out of.
^ Wait, he said his parents are okay with his being pedophiles? Shit. If anything, that reinforces that we couldn't have done anything to help him. If his own parents say pedophilia is alright, I doubt we could persuade him to think differently.
Can I just say why I didn't participate in this thread last night?
It's because for two days a week, I have to share a TAFE class with this one guy who makes way too many jokes about "kiddy-fiddlers", and I doubt he understands just how much the rest of us hate it. He's obviously aware that pedophilia is not a good thing, but for some reason he thinks it's something that smart people like to joke about ad nauseum. He strikes me as the kind of person who either takes South Park a little too seriously, or doesn't take it seriously enough. The rest of the class (yes, this includes myself) has multiple reasons to despise this guy, but that is by far the most prominent one.
That's why I never said anything to Draven — I have to deal with enough of this shit in real life as it is.
No, but he did say they know. He also said that he's not in counseling and that he still lives with them. That doesn't speak kindly of his home life.
I didn't really give a shit about his Otherkin thing, as far as I'm aware it has something to do with furries doesn't it? Anyway, it was one of those quirks that doesn't hurt anybody on the forum.
However his "I'm a paedo but it's cool k" thing I think WAS worth a ban. He was causing drama and he was going to use the site as an emotional crutch. Do I think we (and me included, though I think I was rather reserved last night) could have handled it better? Yes. Do I think anyone was unjustified in their sheer hatred? No.
I have to agree with you, Alex when you say it's not being a paedophile that's wrong, it's being a child molester that is wrong. However I'd say that for a paedophile to act on their urges in any way (except, MAYBE unassisted masturbation) is wrong and Draven did act on his urges and even said he'd further act on them, and that's not the kind of person I think we need to be associated with.
That seems wrong too, if impossible to enforce.
Yeah, I'd say it's wrong too. Most pedophiles understand that acting on those urges in any way is wrong and suppress them accordingly with the help of their shrink.
Also, Otherkin.
Holy moley
^ Poor Psyduck.
I think that people are already well aware of my opinion on this matter, so excuse me while I go back into my dark corner.
I missed all the drama (probably for the better), and while I do agree that the Chagen name-calling was going too far, ultimately it wasn't the paedophilia so much as his attitude towards it. And yes, the best course of action on the Net would be to Flag and get out of there, but we all know that never works on the Internet.
Though speaking of Chagen, I still remember all those times when people insisted we should still be constructive to him even though a lot of us had put up with his bullshit for months and personally, I didn't feel like suddenly forgetting everything he'd done every time he whined about the same damn thing. I can easily understand that several people here weren't willing to go through all that again and I considering that, I really don't see how people could be positive. Neutral, definitely, but patience has limits.
Perhaps what we really need is a "Why Not Take A Break" protocol whenever the forum goes shitty. Certainly, taking time off every so often works wonders for one's mental health.
ninja'd.