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Comments
It can try, and trying is much better than hateful shaming.
Basically, what nick and insanity already said. I'm sorry for what occurred.
@Alex: I didn't see any hatefulness in most of the shaming. Mostly incredulity.
Yeah, I'm can't say I liked what happened here at all. To be perfectly honest, if anything, my opinion regarding a lot of people has lowered quite a bit.
(inb4 "blah blah blah it was never high in the first place")
My opinion of people...
...hasn't changed at all, actually. Weird.
Maybe because I wasn't paying much attention to who said what.
^^^, ^^
My opinion of people has actually improved somewhat. Even the most morally outraged of posters were pretty restrained, and the moment the back-and-forth start going in circles excessive drama was averted through an onslaught of shitposts. Maybe not the most elegant of solutions, but it beats the insult-throwing and over-the-top hyperboles that characterized Chagen threads.
This is honestly the closes we have come to a Chagen thread since Chagen got banned, ain't gonna lie. The only difference is that Chagen was unlikeable enough for me to actually side with the people who yelled at him.
I do wish I had anticipated how circular and dogpile-y this thread would get and stayed on (it was 2:00 in the morning, so I didn't really care at that point), to maybe talk to him before he damned himself so much.
Welp, I now remember why it's a bad idea to stay up past midnight.
I totally agree that everyone's behaviour was bad last night, but I have to point something out here; it's not mine, nor anyone else's here, job to ensure that the guy seeks therapy. In fact, I would say that putting the pressure on anyone here to make him seek therapy is a pretty terrible idea.
It's not my responsibility to ensure that the guy seeks therapy, basically. And putting that onus on anyone is not a good thing to do.
Similarly, you really don't know if anyone here has previous experiences that could bias them against an admitted pedophile. I will admit that part of my attitude last night was caused by both my cousin having been molested as a child and just having spent several days with my young cousin. Ordinarily, I'd have just stayed out of the thread, but hey, 1AM posting.
You know, you may have immediately gone on to make a joke about it, but to be honest, considering your general attitude around the place and towards a lot of the posters here, I really don't think that your opinion of many of the people here changed all that much.
On the other hand, I can understand why INUH and Everest would have lost respect. Although I'm a little disappointed that Everest didn't outright ban me, not gonna lie; I'm fairly sure that the other element of my behaviour last night was me pushing for a ban so that I could lose the ability to post in this place, and thus lose contact with most of my remaining friends.
I mean, I'm glad he didn't ban me, because that was a terrible idea and I don't know why I did it (yes I do, loldepression and self-hatred) and I really don't want to do it again. But, I mean, when someone acted like I did and then outright stated that they're pretty sure they could get a ban, I'm pretty sure that they usually actually get banned.
OK, I'll put it as bluntly as I can:
Has anyone here felt legitimately like I've attacked them and meant to do so as opposed to jockingly doing so?
@Nova: Not that I want to ban you, but for what it's worth, we do often take some time to make these decisions. I considered a ban, especially since you pretty much asked for it, but INUH never mentioned you once he got back and we talked about this in the mod room, so unless he just forgot to mention it, he didn't think you were worthy of a ban, and (especially in light of what you just pointed out) that's good enough for me.
^ If your occasional indictments of the community at large count, then yes.
V Also what he said.
Jockingly as in "like some alpha prick"?
;P
No, I don't feel like you've attacked me.
There are a lot of ways you can disregard someone/disrespect them without attacking them, though.
For example, quite often, you can be quite condescending about whatever point you are making, which is pretty disrespectful towards whoever you are talking to.
Yes, jockingly.
No, personally.
Well, a lot of my behaviour last night was pretty much me thinking that hey, it would be a pretty great idea to be banned from here, because then I would lose contact with everyone here and have just about nowhere to go, meaning I could do nothing but sink further into myself and probably never be able to claw my way out of my depression. Another part of that was, well, causing that exact reaction everyone mentioned, about sabotaging people's opinions of me, in order to achieve the same effect if it was decided not to ban me.
I don't know. You try posting at 1AM when you've had seven hours sleep in three days and are feeling like shit in general and see if you make rational or even sensible decisions.
For what it's worth, I am glad that you didn't ban me, because my behaviour seems pretty terrible in the warm glow of daylight (and seven hours sleep). But, I dunno, if I ever do that again (which I will endeavour not to), just ban me.
Eh, my opinion of some of you guys have increased, if only because I probably couldn't have restrained myself as well as you guys did. Kudos.
Well. That was decidedly creepy.
As to the actual topic of the thread, being that I have been ignoring TvTropes (or the SA thread) recently, can I ask what specifically brought on this round of article purges? I heard something about Google ads and the tentacles page, but that's it, really.
Eddie became set on removing pedophilic works from the wiki.
Which, as I understand it, brought out the Rasos of the wiki to defend their precious pedo shit. Hm. Seems fairly predictable.
Oh well, I suppose. It's not as if it's the first time Eddie's attempts to do damage control after SA makes fun of him went haywire. At least this time his target is worth shooting at, though.
@Cygan: I will say this, you have absolutely nothing to apologize for in that thread.
None of this has anything to do with good conduct or dealing thoughtfully with the issue, though. If all someone can offer is derision, then they probably ought not to post.
So while it's no-one's responsibility to deal with anyone else's issues, it is one's own responsibility to keep their behaviour in check and therefore, if choosing to contribute to a potentially volatile subject, to contribute constructively rather than in a manner that includes or invites shaming, bullying or any other related behaviour.
The thing is, anyone who commented on the issue with advice for Draven chose some degree of responsibility, just like anyone who bullied him chose to partake of that kind of conduct. It's one thing to deny, rightfully, that it is one's own responsibility or anyone else's to help someone with that kind of issue -- but it's a different matter entirely to justify bad behaviour after choosing to become a part of the matter at hand by being an active participant in the discussion.
No-one here has a responsibility towards Draven, but everyone here has a responsibility towards themselves and the IJBM community. That's why we ban people -- they fail their responsibility of conduct towards the community. At the very least, the kind of behaviour that characterised a fair chunk of this thread should be seen as a violation of personal conduct responsibility, not to mention basic civility. Two wrongs don't make a right.
But even so?
There was a point where Draven said he'd seek therapy. That might have been bullshit. But Insanity Addict rightly suggested that he produce evidence of seeking therapy after some amount of time. So if he doesn't seek therapy when he might have because he was bullied here and his resultant behaviour earned him a ban, then I think it absolutely is those people who chose that conduct who share responsibility for that. Because some people chose to be part of it and chose shaming, derision and bullying over constructive behaviour that might have influenced a pedophile to get therapy and become less of a threat.
This thread chose bullying rather than positive influence. And as much as no-one had a responsibility towards Draven, those who have posted since his admission chose to become part of it by attempting to influence his actions be that through gentle means or more heavy-handed ones. An adult always has the responsibility of dealing with things sensibly and constructively. By making oneself a part of something, then one becomes responsible for the conduct that blocked a stronger solution.
Draven was obviously too comfortable with this condition and definitely needed to rethink his views on it at the very least, but that doesn't justify poor conduct. Ultimately, pedophiles are people and they don't choose their affliction. The more they're shamed for it, the more alienated they'll feel and the more they could very well recede from the real world. Then children get raped, because there are no structures or support to prevent pedophiles from engaging in such behaviour or to help them deal with the world. Pedophiles need help, and they need to be convinced they need help with reason and respect.
Shaming does not work, not for anything. At best, you can make people lie to save face or make them take basic, insincere steps towards fixing a problem that's become a part of their identity. But with reason and compassion, you can convince people that change is good and that there's a better version of themselves and a better life waiting for them. The "best" that can be said of shaming is that it's coercion, essentially a form of violence enacted with socialisation rather than fists.
Ultimately, this isn't just about Draven. It's about us, too, and I would sincerely hope that we could all be better than this in the future.
Which reminds me, I have like, three people to stab.
I do, actually. The way I acted was pretty bad. I mean:
Was really not necessary, and probably could have undone the guy's resolution to actually go seek therapy if he really was going to seek therapy for it.
I know? I never said that I agreed with the way everyone acted, this morning at least. In fact, I'm pretty sure that I indicated that I'm ashamed of the way I acted (or if I didn't, let this be my record of that.) I'm just against the notion that any personal responsibility for getting the guy to go speak to a therapist should be placed upon anyone here.
Just so you know, I still call you "lil' Gypsie". Heh heh heh.
^^ I agree with that in concept, it's just that I also think that by attempting to influence Draven, some people chose responsibility.
For the record, my comments aren't directed at one specific person -- who posted what comments has sort of just melted into an amorphous blob in my mind anyway -- but are trying to make a point about constructive solutions. I don't want anyone to feel shamed concerning their behaviour, because it's understandable. But I also want people to understand that there are better solutions.
@Juan: I don't feel as if you disparage anyone here or the community very much at all. But then again, jaded longhair rocker hivemind and all that.
Perhaps not necessary, but it certainly was correct.