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Myrmidon · 2011-08-02 15:27:52

Also, it is really, really hard to get something deleted when you have to deal with things like this. http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13040975770A08893000&page=7#165

Also, @Vicas, thank you, that was very enlightening.

GLORIOUSLeader · 2011-08-02 15:29:06

The Getting Crap Past the Radar article ~~was~~ is especially bad

Fixed that for you. Right now, the worst pages are probably the Victorious, iCarly, Wizards of Waverly Place, and MLP: FIM pages. Dear God, the creep factor of shoehorning sexuality into a show about ponies. What is wrong with you.

All Nines · 2011-08-02 15:29:35

"Illegalizing loli/shota is more complicated than 'I think loli/shota is gross!' This is a issue of corruption culture and not just about media censoring."

That seems, to me, more like an issue (among a few others) with Japanese culture and abuse in general than with the media being inherently corrupt. As Engrish_Ivy said, it seems like the problem is more that Japan discourages victims of molestation from speaking up, because that's somehow more honorable than bringing a criminal to justice. If Japan didn't have this sort of problem, I doubt loli/shota would be as big of an issue. It's obviously quite distressing that this is the case there, and that it's apparently so common, as attested to by a victim, but unless someone can cite this being a major problem in any other country that has widespread loli/shota media, I would really say it's more the fault of Japanese culture than fantasy put to paper. It's abuse of an otherwise harmless thing, which people do with lots of other stuff, if to less grave degrees.

And I don't think CP is on the same level as loli manga for reasons that have already been said; I think they're both disgusting, but one of these things does not inherently (keyword: inherently) entail the suffering of an actual child/children.

And unless it turns out that DYRE and evilneko have actually been molesting little kids in real life, or doing something similarly heinous, we're not going to ban them for being lolicons. Don't tell the mods what to do; just keep laughing at it if you wish, if you don't agree with that, but this is our site. You have yours.

@Vicas: While I haven't paid attention to TVTropes's wiki proper in quite some time and thus can't very well comment on the idea that TVTropes forgoes analysis in favor of cataloging, I pretty much already knew that the point of the SA thread was to laugh at the stupider stuff on there (and when I eventually join SA, I'll probably be right in there laughing at it with you guys). I apologize if it seems like anyone is missing that message, because I feel like that's clear enough.

Kino · 2011-08-02 15:33:34

^^^^Unfortunately that all changed a few months ago; good times.

So who's already started saving $10?

TuefelHundenIV · 2011-08-02 15:33:41

Vicas: That has to be one of the best wall of text posts I have read in a while. To my surprise the various pages do have a tab for Analyzing a work. The problem is that is so vastly underutilized and unknown it well sees almost no use. Hell most people did not know it existed until one thread a mod pointed out that section was there and has been for a while.

I get the gist of what your saying and it makes a lot more sense and clarifies the issue of TvT being anti-intellectual a fair amount.

Kino: I might. I swear Eddie has gone completely nuts and is grinding Tvt into some weird form. It is like watching something familiar slowly mutate from an alien infection into a slime covered monster.

ClockworkUniverse · 2011-08-02 15:35:44

I definitely agree that not enough people bother with the analysis aspect of troping in favor of cataloguing.

Kino · 2011-08-02 15:36:00

So has anyone here actually proposed a means to fix the issues with the site? Or is everyone just getting their bitch time in?

MillerCross · 2011-08-02 15:38:41

Re: DADT: Ah, I thought it was a double entendre. But I think it still works.

@Vicas: I agree that analysis is not what the wiki does, and I dislike that they claim to do so. However, I feel that a wiki's duty is not to analyse and just to catalogue. At least, going by the Wikipedia model, anyway.

Engrish_Ivy · 2011-08-02 15:39:14

@Kino: I tried getting Zettai Ryouiki cleaned up, and got accused of trying to rape the trope, for my efforts. You?

TuefelHundenIV · 2011-08-02 15:41:03

To be honest efforts for various things have been attempted or suggested in the past and have been dog piled by the rabid supporters.

All Nines · 2011-08-02 15:42:55

"So has anyone here actually proposed a means to fix the issues with the site? Or is everyone just getting their bitch time in?"

As the others above said, a big issue with TVTropes is that the issues won't be fixed because of the people resistant to change because they can't see how it might be for the better. People getting their bitch time in isn't any less productive than trying to argue it out on the actual site.

Crimson · 2011-08-02 15:43:06

That's actually a very good point Vicas, I agree somewhat about not being able to completely understand the nuances of a specific work. But I think that isn't really the point, tropes are used to help you get a feel for a work with the rest being left up to the readers. Similar to how a Wikipedia page can help you understand a given topic, but it sure as hell won't make you an expert. The fact that Tv Tropes at least tries to nudge you in that direction, regardless of how effective it is, disqualifies it from being outright anti-intellectual, in my opinion.

As for the lack of analysis, Tv Tropes does have an analysis namespace, but it's woefully under-used. I think that's mostly due to people being lazy and the looseness of the wiki in general.

As for "Yup X trope is there", as far as I know this is actually discouraged (especially banal "X just X" entries). But people don't try to expand on it or delete it because, once again, people are lazy.

EDIT: Ninja'd several times over.

EDIT 2: ^That's another thing, the TVT community in general lacks a sense of decisiveness, with both dealing with major changes in the wiki itself and dealing with the community. That's why it took this long to change things like Nakama and why some really bad posters take a while to get banned.

inkblot · 2011-08-02 15:43:20

So has anyone here actually proposed a means to fix the issues
with the site? Or is everyone just getting their bitch time in?

There is no way to fix the issues with the site if the majority of users don't think those issues exist.

MillerCross · 2011-08-02 15:44:01

We've argued many times before. There's also the problem of bad precedents set by moderation such as the first Nakama rename thread ending in bans and drama.

Stuff like that makes people scared of moderation.

inkblot · 2011-08-02 15:44:27

^ It's a bit too late for that.

ClockworkUniverse · 2011-08-02 15:45:38

I think one thing that would at least improve TV Tropes would be to start a campaign, based from a special efforts thread on TV Tropes, to make better use of the Analysis namespace and another to work on good articles for...not really sure what the phrase to use would be, but if I say "works of literary merit," I imagine you'll all know what I mean.

MillerCross · 2011-08-02 15:46:54

I think that analysis should be used more. But I also believe that both it and Reviews need some quality control.

Especially reviews. As it is, I think that a character minimum before entering a review into the site should help wonders to clean up some of the shit.

The_Edge · 2011-08-02 15:46:54

^^That would be nice. Some people would do it, but I believe most users to be lazy.

Scrye2 · 2011-08-02 15:49:11

@Kino: I tried to get TV Tropes out of their usual hugbox attitude, but I gots banneded.

MillerCross · 2011-08-02 15:49:22

The problem with the Analysis namespace is that what we do have is a bit...fanwanky.

And some of it(At least, a third) is tongue in cheek.

Stormtroper · 2011-08-02 15:50:03

Edit: I derped. Wrong thread.

TuefelHundenIV · 2011-08-02 15:50:56

A character minimum would be a good idea. Game Spot uses that feature for their user generated reviews.

INUH: You mean like a emphasis on classical/traditional works ie say replacing that crappy video show we have something truly useful in the banner space.

Scrye: But they just wanted to hug you...and rape your dead body in a shed out back.

Myrmidon · 2011-08-02 15:53:08

"I tried to get TV Tropes out of their usual hugbox attitude, but I gots banned"

And what a heroic martyr you were.

MillerCross · 2011-08-02 15:53:34

No, what INUH means is, works that lend themselves to analysis, regardless of old or youngness.

Myrmidon · 2011-08-02 15:54:19

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Analysis/Analysis

The namespace, for reference.

Kino · 2011-08-02 15:55:44

@Scrye2:Why u no use subtlety?!?

@Engrish_Ivy: I have not, nor will I ever edit a trope, and for good
reason; we've all seen the bitch-fest that occurs when a little
bluntness and practicality are used. I'll stick to constructive
criticism.

GLORIOUSLeader · 2011-08-02 15:55:51

What bothers me is no matter how good our analysis of any work is, it could not ever parallel Uncyclopedia's analysis of "go eat shit fuckers."

^ I forget who said it, but a while ago somebody noted that the only type of criticism TVTropes will really accept is the LouieW school of criticism (not meant as a slight against him, but rather as an example of the only criticism receptive on TVT).

The_Edge · 2011-08-02 15:56:28

Anyone here actually already write out analysis on TVT?

inkblot · 2011-08-02 15:56:45

A character minimum would be a good idea. Game Spot uses that feature for their user generated reviews.

"You cannot have less than 100 or more than 400 words"?

Scrye2 · 2011-08-02 16:01:23

@GLORIOUSLeader: Sooooo "I'm probably wrong, but this is what I was thinking, and I'm sorry for thinking it?" type of criticism?

That's a blatant flanderization of LouieW's style of post, but if you're saying that that kind of formatting is the only way TVT will accept criticism, I definitely see where you're coming from.

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