Sexually aggressive women will turn you gay, Japan says.

Nova

it’s an installation piece that tells a familiar, immediately-identifiable story (that of the roughly, carelessly handled package) while simultaneously housing a handful of incredibly interesting ideas. the package was shipped with the full intent of it being handled carelessly, returned and presented as art — completely unbeknownst to the employees, who proceeded to treat it exactly as they would treat a package that did not contain “art”.

that indifference says a lot of things about how absolutely arbitrary the “value” we give to art is, and also poses some interesting questions about when exactly something begins to be classified as art — is it when the piece is planned? is it when the piece is shipped? is it when the piece arrives at the gallery? is it when the show opens?

if you happened across this piece sitting in a warehouse full of glass showcases, it wouldn’t be a piece at all, it would just be an unfortunate error waiting to be thrown away. if you happened across it in a FedEx warehouse, you’d reprimand the employee responsible and toss it. if you happened across it when it was outside the gallery waiting to be brought in, you’d assume the gallery owner would be very annoyed that one of the glass showcases they ordered broke and they’d have to order another one.

in fact, it is the very action of presenting it as a piece of art and opening it up for critical interpretation that defines it as art. that is the action that gives value to these two objects. it allows their story to be told by allowing you to experience it and consider it in an elevated, critical manner that you otherwise would never have done.

it’s a very high-concept piece and so it takes a lot more mental investment in order to understand and appreciate than, say, a pretty painting of a landscape would. but once you do, it’s a very nice treat. I enjoyed it.

(it also happens to be really really pleasing aesthetically, which I’m sure played a large part in the conceptual refinement and physical planning stage after the inception of the original concept. the decision to have the case be cube-shaped and not rectangular was a particularly well-considered decision that adds a lot to the final product.)

(Which I'm fairly sure is one dude bullshitting, but I can't be sure)

ClockworkUniverse

in fact, it is the very action of presenting it as a piece of art and opening it up for critical interpretation that defines it as art

That reminds me. I knew a photographer once who would take photos of litter and stuff like that, and display it in a gallery and sell it as art. If someone asked him what it meant, he's just say "what do you think it means?"

MillerCross

(it also happens to be really really pleasing aesthetically, which I’m sure played a large part in the conceptual refinement and physical planning stage after the inception of the original concept. the decision to have the case be cube-shaped and not rectangular was a particularly well-considered decision that adds a lot to the final product.)

so...what i said counts too.

Nova

so...what i said counts too.

Yes, but it's not the reason it's counted as art. It's a factor, but not the catalyst.

Nova

That reminds me. I knew a photographer once who would take photos of litter and stuff like that, and display it in a gallery and sell it as art. If someone asked him what it meant, he's just say "what do you think it means?"

One of the pieces of art in my local gallery is a book with the letter A cut out of its' cover

vacasama

So how did this went from discussing Japan's social problems to the defination of "Art"?

ClockworkUniverse

Someone mentioned words nobody can define well.

Hatter

What irritates me is that so often these edgy statements about society are things we already know and accept.

If someone yells at me, "The picture is made of trash because THE WORLD IS TRASH," I'm just going to shrug, agree with them, then offer them some chocolate.

MillerCross

What irritates me is that so often these edgy statements about society are things we already know and accept.

An statement doesn't have to be new to be presented as new.

DYRE

And there's generally a lot more to a piece of art than just a one-sentence summary of what the artist was trying to convey.  Much of the meaning of art comes from the process of trying to discover the meaning of it, and thus being forced to actual think about the concepts it conveys.  If someone just tells you what it's supposed to mean, you'll just casually dismiss it or accept it without any further thought about it, so of course it will seem less meaningful.

All Nines

So, are there, like, any consistent patterns by which we derail threads? I can't even remember if the derail progression for one is [sex --> linguistics] or [linguistics --> sex], and now it's [sex --> art].

I kid, I kid.

MillerCross

technically, we went from sex to linguistics to art. :P

vacasama

Well it's too bad, I was kind of hoping how Japan treats it's homosexuals and it's disconnect to it's Yaoi media.

All Nines

^^ Oh, yeah. You did, didn't you?

What is it with us and relating sex to linguistics? XD

RedEyedAbyss

^^Elaborate please.

By the way, I am unable to comprehend the notion of being turned on by gay people getting it on. 

MillerCross

By the way, I am unable to comprehend the notion of being turned on by gay people getting it on.

blah blah blah aesthetics blah blah blah pretty girls having sex with other pretty girls still involves pretty girls blah blah blah change girls to boy as appliable blah blah blah 

LouieW

Everest,

Frankly, I am kind of surprised that this did not somehow get derailed to a discussion about whether video games are art. I guess that could be linked back to Japan somehow and then this thing would come full circle.

vacasama,

Well it's too bad, I was kind of hoping how Japan treats it's homosexuals and it's disconnect to it's Yaoi media.

We can still talk about that kind of stuff if you would like. I do not know much about this, but from I have heard, Yaoi is really targeted towards heterosexual women (and Yuri towards heterosexual men). If that is true, then I think there is not necessarily a disconnect there.

Another criticism of Yaoi/Yuri is that the characters tend to be characterized almost as if they were male/female pairs instead of male/male or female/female pairs. I am not sure how you would go about judging that, but if you take the position that Yaoi/Yuri is generally about appealing to the fantasies of people who heterosexual, then that all seems believable to me.

MillerCross

Frankly, I am kind of surprised that this did not somehow get derailed to a discussion about whether video games are art. I guess that could be linked back to Japan somehow and then this thing would come full circle.

And after that, we'd move onto Moe: Good or bad for you.

All Nines

And after that, we'd move onto Moe: Unequivocally Good for you.

CountryPumpkin

Bad.

e: ^ Please don't say things like that, even if you're kidding. I'm kind of on edge due to troper-related shenanigans and I would really hate getting banned from this site early due to going off on you violently about Japan's horrifyingly backwards culture in regards to females and sexuality.

All Nines

I'm aware of their backwardsness in regards to females and sexuality, don't worry. I've ranted at my friends about this multiple times. I just don't want to get bogged down in another country's depressing problems and have that detracting from my enjoyment of cutesy things.

MillerCross

oh god you fags, i didn't mean it seriously >

CountryPumpkin

Okay, I just wanted to make sure that you knew that much of the "moe" subculture comes from the Japanese fetishization of women as cute, clueless, and subservient to men. 

^ e: Could you not use homophobic language? That would be appreciated.

All Nines

^^ I don't intend to turn this into another debate. I just wanted to make a joke and then clarify that I'm not some sort of pedo-enabling troper.

^ I do. I just don't want that to get in the way of my enjoyment of shows like K-On! at face value, because not every show handles it as poorly as it could.

CountryPumpkin

Fair enough, I don't watch anime so I don't really know much about the goings-on of anime, I just know about where some of their odd quirks stem from. I still can't explain the rampant pedophilia, and any attempt at doing so has just made me incredibly depressed, but I do know what Japan has to say about women.

Sadie

 I do not know much about this, but from I have heard, Yaoi is really targeted towards heterosexual women (and Yuri towards heterosexual men). If that is true, then I think there is not necessarily a disconnect there.

I feel like I should point out that yuri can be targeted towards straight women, straight men, and lesbian women. Most yuri isn't aimed directly at males and the genre as a whole is nowhere near considered to be as objectifying as yaoi, and the majority of it doesn't include obvious "male/female" partner roles.

vacasama

We can still talk about that kind of stuff if you would like. I do not know much about this, but from I have heard, Yaoi is really targeted towards heterosexual women (and Yuri towards heterosexual men). If that is true, then I think there is not necessarily a disconnect there.

Another criticism of Yaoi/Yuri is that the characters tend to be characterized almost as if they were male/female pairs instead of male/male or female/female pairs. I am not sure how you would go about judging that, but if you take the position that Yaoi/Yuri is generally about appealing to the fantasies of people who heterosexual, then that all seems believable to me.

I remember talking to a woman who used to think Japanese culture was godly until she talked to Japanese Gays and Lesbians.  She shocked and horrified on how Japanese society treated their homosexuals.  She didn't specify on how that they got treated.  What little I do know Japanese society is, they most likely were shunned by their family and friends when they tried to come out of the closet.

Another time, at a forum we were talking about Japan.  One poster spend some time in Japan and he knew somebody that claimed that Japan has no Gay people.

The disconnect I'm talking about is that Yaoi and Yuri are popular in Japan with a specific demographic and yet, I do see hints that Japan is very homophobic.  

All Nines

Given the connection between Yaoi/Yuri and their apparent homophobia, I have a feeling that, if they can't confide in anyone, it's because the non-nerd cultured are just bigoted towards them, as one could guess based on the society's views on other matters of sexuality, and the ones who read Yaoi/Yuri objectify them.

Sadie

^^ Relevant study on the stigmatization homosexual Japanese men face: http://www.jstor.org/pss/40665368

RedEyedAbyss

"And after that, we'd move onto Moe: Unequivocally Good for you."