IJBM II's One Year Anniversary

glennmagusharvey

I think a good political discussion relies not on the presence of people with opposing opinions but on the presence of people with sufficiently open minds to discuss others' opinions as well as question their own.

RedEyedAbyss

Sounds about right. I think a major reason why political discussions go bad is the idea that confrontation is the norm and it's about defending one's ideology.

FrodoGoofballCoTV

On IJBM:
Were you active in IJBM prior to its deletion?
Yes, but not very active.

If so, what did you like the most about it?
It was a place to voice concerns and get feedback.

What did you dislike the most about it?
I guess the fact that sometimes a serious post recieved mostly shitposting replies.

Before IJBM's deletion was announced, did you think that subforum would ever be axed?
No, I was surprised.

Do you think IJBM's deletion made sense?
Yes, it was the first step in implementing a pile of new rules, which I believe have improved the site for readers at the cost of making it a whole lot less fun to be a member of the TV Tropes community.

Do you have any bad memories of IJBM post-deletion announcement (especially its last few hours)?
Just people getting too upset about it.

Do you have any good memories of IJBM post-deletion announcement (especially its last few hours)?
The "official end - of IJBM" thread was a thing of beauty.  I don't care much for people replying by posting images or videos, but that one had some great ones.
Also, IJBM's death thows in the last few moments.  It didn't just dissapear, but died in stages, like a movie character who'se been mortally wounded and tries to crawl away before collapsing.

In your view, has IJBM's deletion affected TV Tropes?
Not much, really.  The deletion proved to be a symptom of a larger change.

Would TV Tropes be better or worse if IJBM became a subforum again?
I think it would make less sense to put it back now than removing it did.  It would be out of place unless other changes were made.

How have your posting habits/view of TV Tropes changed since IJBM's deletion?
It seems less fun now.  I think we should just delete the "we are not wikipedia" page and accept that that is who we are.  I am a lot more careful now.  It takes me many months to launch stuff on YKTTW.

Did you ever envision something like IJBM II after IJBM's end was announced?
The thought had occurred to me, but I didn't really expect it.

Are you surprised that IJBM II is still around?
Yes.

Are you surprised that you are still posting on IJBM II?
Yes.

Why keeps you coming back?
I guss it's the only place I really have to complain about things or just talk about random stuff.

What are your least favorite aspects of IJBM II, especially in comparison to IJBM?
I miss some of the old markup capabilities.  And some of the behavior I've seen here that mods have had to deal with, though that's declined dramatically.  I miss some of the people we've lost.

What are your favorite aspects of IJBM II, especially in comparison to IJBM?
The sense of a separate community.  The more serious tone.  The more community - oriented setting.

How well do you believe IJBM II has captured the spirit of the original IJBM? Should it be similar or were there problems with IJBM that IJBM II has solved?
No, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.  I think IJBM II is much better able to stand on its own as a valuable forum and community than IJBM was.

If IJBM had been moderated and treated like IJBM II, do you think it would still be on TV Tropes today?
No.  I see the end of IJBM as a necessary step in the overall changes we've seen in the last year.

What do you think is the most important factor for keeping IJBM II alive in the future?
I honestly don't know.  Maybe getting new members.  Also, I have no idea if the finances of the site are OK or not.  TV Tropes has had some serious problems with that.

Actually, on second thought, maybe member behavior.  There will always be those who think IJBM II is the hellhole of the internet, but as long as they're wrong, maybe we'll be OK.

Nyarly

It seems less fun now.  I think we should just delete the "we are not
wikipedia" page and accept that that is who we are.

This is ridiculous, TV Tropes is nothing like Wikipedia. For one thing, Wikipedia is not completely irrelevant. Actually, I think it would be better if TV Tropes would aspire to be more like Wikipedia.

MadassAlex

I disagree. TV Tropes' relevance is beside the point to me. I originally went there because I found it fun and charming, and still do. I get that there are problems and all, but I think the solution is to be more active stamping out poor entries and pimping rather than imposing structural changes that would make it a poor man's English class.

Nyarly

TV Tropes' relevance is beside the point to me. I originally went there because I found it fun and charming, and still do.

I too, actually. But I don't understand why becoming more like Wikipedia (not exactly like Wikipedia) is supposedly such a big no-no.

RedEyedAbyss

Fast Eddie has a grudge against Wikipedia. It's as simple as that.

MadassAlex

It depends what you mean by "more like Wikipedia". Citations wouldn't work because of the variety of media forms; one can't cite a video game like they can a book, for instance. And a more formal tone would ruin the appeal for me.

ClockworkUniverse

^^^Because people perceive Wikipedia as boring and overly bogged down by rules.

I don't think TV Tropes should try to be like Wikipedia, but trying to be unlike Wikipedia in every way would be dumb (which is why TV Tropes doesn't actually do that, to the surprise of about 90% of new editors who think they can post natter or whatever).

^^Are you sure it's Fast Eddie? Because half the time I see "We are not Wikipedia," it's some newcomer saying it, then the mods or whatever say "no, that's not an actual policy." Actually, I think Fast Eddie cut and locked the WANW page. This page, however, still exists.

RedEyedAbyss

I still believe that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Even if it's not a formal citation, at least link to the statistics so I know that you're not just pulling stuff out of your arse. As for formality, Tv Tropes often tries too hard to be funny, and nothing is more unfunny than that. Though part of that is traced back to their "Humour is subjective" idea. Imagine telling your audience that at a stand-up show.

^I originally linked We Are Not Wikipedia to Troper's Law, a page saying that this form of argumentation is bad. Maybe things have changed since a few years ago, but Fast Eddie's posts back then definitely showed spite towards Wikipedia. Heck, he had a Citation Needed page solely to make a potshot at the site, which a bunch of us complained about.

FrodoGoofballCoTV

Well, I'm sorry I derailed the thread.  I guess what I am trying to say is that TV Tropes focuses too much on avoiding vandalism, edit wars, etc., and is no longer focused on creativity IMHO.

I think we are beginning to improve again as people get more used to the rules.  Take a look at Spies In A Van.  I wish more of the trope pages I've had a hand in looked like that.

Stormtroper

^^Are you sure it's Fast Eddie? Because half the time I see "We are not
Wikipedia," it's some newcomer saying it, then the mods or whatever say
"no, that's not an actual policy." Actually, I think Fast Eddie cut and
locked the WANW page.

I remember a post from him where he described Wikipedia more or less with the same vitriol he'd describe Something Awful now. That was various years ago, though, so he could've easily changed his mind since.

Icalasari

Ninjaclown: I often forget who is and isn't a mod, so I don't think you should have to worry about us seeing you as above us

captainbrass

"There will always be those who see IJBM II as the hell-hole of the internet."

What sheltered lives some people must lead...

MillerCross

What sheltered lives some people must lead...

Well, yeah, TvT seems to be many people's first forum, and that's a forum that tends to have a rather romantic view of itself as this bastion of sanity in the internet while the rest of the forums are horrible hellholes of no moderation and shit. 

Granted, this is a phenomenom found across all of the internet, but it's definetly exarcebated by people who have never been to another forum and thus judge negatively based on what their peers (And leaders, for lack of a better word) tell them to judge.

ninjaclown

IJBM II? US? What captainbrass said, that is just...sad.

Forzare

Especially since I'm pretty sure it's been more than a month since our last real shitstorm. Bet TVT can't say they've ever seen that.

MillerCross

Also, I'll never understand how people can say Wikipedia is unfunny and ultra formal when it's probably one of the more readable wikis out there, what with the deadpan humor and sneak simpson references and all.

Forzare

I always liked Wikipedia, myself.

captainbrass

Juan - I think some people confuse humour with annoying random wackiness, and unfortunately there are a lot of them on the internet.

gentlemanorcus

-skipped a bunch of posts-

Fast Eddie is very vitriolic about TVTropes remaining casual and not becoming Wikipedia, to the point he embodies Troper's Law, a page made to mock people like that. 

gentlemanorcus

On IJBM: 

• "Were you active in IJBM prior to its deletion? If so, what did you like/dislike the most about it?" I was somewhat active, but I wasn't really that good at arguing and interacting with the people there, so I stopped posting. 
• "Before IJBM's deletion was announced, did you think that subforum would ever be axed?" It seemed it was heading that way, yes. 
• "Do you think IJBM's deletion made sense?" It had negativity. Of course it couldn't be in TVTropes any longer.
• "Do you have any good/bad memories of IJBM post-deletion announcement (especially its last few hours)?" Nope.
• "In your view, has IJBM's deletion affected TV Tropes? Would TV Tropes be better or worse if IJBM became a subforum again?" TVTropes has been in a downward decline for years, and bringing IJBM back wouldn't change a thing (other than making the IJAM subforum a bit less stupid).
• "How have your posting habits/view of TV Tropes changed since IJBM's deletion?" Well, I've been banned, for one thing. But that didn't have anything to do with IJBM. 
  

On IJBM II:

• "Did you ever envision something like IJBM II after IJBM's end was announced?" The people who posted on IJBM were different from most people on TVTropes. It seemed inevitable.
• "Are you surprised that IJBM II is still around?" No, not really.
• "Are you surprised that you are still posting on IJBM II? Why keeps you coming back?" There are some interesting discussions to be had here. 
• "What are your favorite/least favorite aspects of IJBM II, especially in comparison to IJBM?" Well, it has less assholes, for one thing. At least the people here don't dismiss your views outright like a lot of people on IJBM did.
  
• "How well do you believe IJBM II has captured the spirit of the original IJBM? Should it be similar or were there problems with IJBM that IJBM II has solved?" Well, considering it's gone far beyond the IJBM aspect by now and is really just a forum with a decorative name, no, it isn't really like IJBM. And I'm fine with that.
• "If IJBM had been moderated and treated like IJBM II, do you think it would still be on TV Tropes today?" Someone would have made some kind of thread bashing KNJ and eddie would deem it as trolling and we'd be on the same steep hill. 
• "What do you think is the most important factor for keeping IJBM II alive in the future?" Being the same it is. If it's been here a year there can't be that many problems. 

FrodoGoofballCoTV

I always liked Wikipedia, myself.

I love Wikipedia.  If the entire web were destroyed except for corporate and government homepages and maybe 10 contributor sites, I'd vote for Wikipedia to be one of the ones that survived.

I guess my beef with TV Tropes is that there is an effort to shift what TV Tropes is without the prior knowledge of the contributors, and away from what I thought it was.  I guess I felt left out.  But like I said, as people get used to the new reality, the individual pages are improving, and I like that.

Anonus

On IJBM:

• Were you active in IJBM prior to its deletion? If so, what did you like/dislike the most about it?

Yes, I was, and I liked it a lot. My favorite aspects were the fact that you could complain about pretty much whatever you were thinking about and how silly the place could be. My least favorite things were dumb arguments, "Oh look, it's THIS thread again", and the constant unexplained thread deletions of the last couple of months.

• Before IJBM's deletion was announced, did you think that subforum would ever be axed?

I didn't rule it out.

• Do you think IJBM's deletion made sense?

For the mods, it did.

• Do you have any good/bad memories of IJBM post-deletion announcement (especially its last few hours)?

All the shit-threads. I liked them because I was an idiot.

• In your view, has IJBM's deletion affected TV Tropes? Would TV Tropes be better or worse if IJBM became a subforum again?

OTC seems to have handily taken over the Forum Trouble Spot/Punching Bag role in the time since IJBM was shut down. And IJBM has no chance of coming back, as I think Eddie believes that IJBM's premise and culture are something he does not want nor does the site need.

• How have your posting habits/view of TV Tropes changed since IJBM's deletion?

I have almost exclusively retreated to Yack Fest, and over the last year or so the site seems to be becoming less to my satisfaction. YF feels kind of insular and repetitive, and a lot of people I've liked have left for either spinoffs or unrelated communities. Or somewhere where I can't contact them at all. I've considered leaving outright at times, but never known where to go (aside from some spinoff or back to Toon Zone, which introduced me to TV Tropes in the first place back in 2008).

On IJBM II:

• Did you ever envision something like IJBM II after IJBM's end was announced?

No.

• Are you surprised that IJBM II is still around?

No.

• Are you surprised that you are still posting on IJBM II? Why keeps you coming back?

I was only a regular here in the first 2-3 months of this place's existence, as some parts of this place have disillusioned me for most of its existence. Curiosity brings me back.

• What are your favorite/least favorite aspects of IJBM II, especially in comparison to IJBM?

I don't think I have a favorite, sorry. My least favorite aspects are things that have passed (e.g. the first few months when the place was endless shitposting and sex talk, the time when this place was Banned Tropers: The Site, as Blixty Slycat once put it).

• How
  well do you believe IJBM II has captured the spirit of the original
  IJBM? Should it be similar or were there problems with IJBM that IJBM II
  has solved?

I'm not sure it ever really did capture that spirit, but there's definitely things that have carried over (e.g. silly derails, snowclone propensity). One of the problems this place lacks is the aforementioned constant unexplained thread deletions.

• If IJBM had been moderated and treated like IJBM II, do you think it would still be on TV Tropes today?

Perhaps it would be, but that's not easy to see happening.

• What do you think is the most important factor for keeping IJBM II alive in the future?

I'm not sure. The place seems to be doing well enough now, considering that it's not that bad now (Banned Tropers: The Site is a thing of the past now, for instance). But I do think one thing needs to happen: I don't know if this is still true, but there seems to be an unwillingness to ban people given the community's small size. It would be of more benefit for all involved (except possibly those who lurk for entertainment) to get rid of problem members, rather than keep them around/keep temp-banning them.

Stormtroper

This site is pretty much the go-to place for banned tropers (less so now), but I don't think banned tropers actually ever made a considerable portion of our userbase (and I like to keep track of these things).

Got a better idea than the current one?  I admit it looks like something
fit for a 1960s New England house with off-white yellow paint and dark
wooden colors, but do we have something better?

I was thinking of replacing the lampshade with a simple bug image, what with the distancing from TV Tropes thing.

I guess my beef with TV Tropes is that there is an effort to shift what
TV Tropes is without the prior knowledge of the contributors, and away
from what I thought it was.  I guess I felt left out.

I guess that's how I felt for much of my time there, too.

Anonus

They didn't, but the "go-to" thing was where the name "Banned Tropers: The Site" came from (I don't think anybody but me or Blixty ever used it, though.).

Funnily, as this site inspired other spinoffs in its wake (e.g. HH, Beyond the Lampshade) they've got other places to go too!

Stormtroper

Sorry, I guess I'm too paranoid about the IJBM II being mostly made of banned tropers thing (which I've seen).

Also, I'm totally binging that lampshade site now, thanks!

Anonus

Though I should say neither of them are meant as such.

ninjaclown

I'll admit I like their list of Tropers to watch out for, it's basically confirmed suspicions I've held for some time, but I wonder if their membership is larger or smaller than ours.

Anonus

They just got started, so they're probably smaller than this place.