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Comments
I can't really answer the questions about IJBM I because I started on the TV Tropes forum at about the same time it was being deleted. In retrospect, I should have seen this as a red light for storms ahead.
On IJBM II:
* Did you ever envisage something like IJBM II after IJBM's end was announced?
No, but I was such a newbie my opinion at the time isn't worth a lot.
* Are you surprised IJBM II is still around?
No, partly because it's provided a bastion of sanity for people escaping the increasing madness of Planet TV Tropes, and partly because it's just a nice place to post.
* Are you surprised you are still posting here? What keeps you coming back?
No. I'm a creature of habit and I like most of the people here.
* Favourite and least favourite aspects of IJBM.
Favourite - it's fairly small and friendly.
Least favourite - Size means it can be a bit slow-moving. I'm not massively keen on all the video game and anime threads myself, but it's fair enough if that's what most people like to discuss. The ongoing link to TV Tropes has caused a lot of drama.
* If IJBM had been moderated and treated like IJBM II, do you think it would still be on TV Tropes?
No, Fast Eddie was never going to appoint the necessary moderators to do that, or do anything that involved more than minimal effort.
* What do you think is the most important factor for keeping IJBM II alive in the future?
Attracting people who are prepared to stick around and taking a firm line with problem posters.
On IJBM:
* Were you active in IJBM prior to its deletion? If so, what did you like/dislike the most about it?
Simply put, I left the site soon after IJBM I bit the dust. In its better threads, it was a fun way of knowing people's perspectives, but most of the time, well, people were terribly impolite. Particularly irritating was the way shitposters claimed the moral high ground for not getting into stupid arguments even though there is nothing more annoying than a person that claims to not care about what you're saying or doing yet simply will not leave.
*Before IJBM's deletion was announced, did you think that subforum would ever be axed?
Locked completely, maybe. Outright deleted, no. Even when it was announced, I thought it would just go the way of Live Bloginations.
*Do you think IJBM's deletion made sense?
I think "is most of the moderation work" makes sense. Though that makes one wonder about OTC.
*Do you have any good/bad memories of IJBM post-deletion announcement (especially its last few hours)?
Emotionless.
*In your view, has IJBM's deletion affected TV Tropes? Would TV Tropes be better or worse if IJBM became a subforum again?
Not really. People just shifted their stupidity to On-Topic Conversations, only with an overinflated sense of "intelligence".
*How have your posting habits/view of TV Tropes changed since IJBM's deletion?
After a few months, the only thing I stuck around for was finishing my liveblog, simply because I promised myself I would. Before then, "Post your random thoughts" took up the majority of my posts. No negativity utterly crippled meaningful discussion, and I wasn't going to stick around for adolescents fake cuddling all the time. Keep in mind that I mostly ignored most of the terrible parts of the site.
On IJBM II:*Did you ever envision something like IJBM II after IJBM's end was announced?
I guess not. Thought it was a gimmick at first.
*Are you surprised that IJBM II is still around?
No. It has that "Tv Tropes refugee" aspect to it, which is going to keep it afloat even if it ends up being a few core members.
*Are you surprised that you are still posting on IJBM II? Why keeps you coming back?
Yes. In truth, I guess I keep coming back out of addict syndrome. Though I guess the discussions can occasionally be interesting, if lacking in variety at this point.
*What are your favorite/least favorite aspects of IJBM II, especially in comparison to IJBM?
Again, the forum ended up revolving around a few core members with such similar interests and demographics that barely anything else gets talked about. Though, like IJBM, it's pretty casual and laid-back, so it's a nice place to go when I'm bored.
*How well do you believe IJBM II has captured the spirit of the original IJBM? Should it be similar or were there problems with IJBM that IJBM II has solved?
As terrible as IJBM I was, at least it had variety. Still, you couldn't make a thread in the old IJBM without the fear that some rude gits would try to shut it down with shitposting or that the thread would derail. There's still some aspect of that now, but at least you can expect some decent discussion. Actually, a lot of it is thanks to you since you always respond to the OP.
It would be nice if IJBM II had the relative variety that IJBM I had, but the culture there was toxic and something that could be done without.
*If IJBM had been moderated and treated like IJBM II, do you think it would still be on TV Tropes today?
Do you mean like how we left Chagen to rampage all over the site for months before we finally kicked him out? I guess that would be fitting for the current state of Tv Tropes.
In all honesty, the moderation here has got a lot better. But the culture here is quite different because of it, mostly because openness is something we frequently demand. Virtually everyone knows that openness is frowned upon on Tv Tropes, even with so many people there demanding it.
*What do you think is the most important factor for keeping IJBM II alive in the future?
Alive or flourishing? Because if it means flourishing, the site definitely needs a greater variety of members. Obviously we certainly do not need more people to whine about their comfortable middle class existence or make all their posts all about themselves, but talking about the same thing constantly gets dull and turns people off with the clique-y aspect of it. Also, for example, it's awkward to talk about feminism on a site that's almost entirely male.
(aside: I mention Chagen because he was the noose around the site's neck for the longest time. The site has changed dramatically after his ban)
Yes, I would say that I was significantly more active there than I am in both places combined today, but that is mostly due to not having a lot less time to keep up with numerous topics or edit the wiki these days. I liked that it was a good "general discussion" place that wasn't quite so "LOL Random" as Yack Fest. I disliked that it's presence made people feel like they were entitled to rant about anything and everything, to the point of taking offense at those who were trying to dial it down a few notches. I also disliked those who took that too far by trying to entirely derail legitimate (though divisive) discussions.
I entertained the thought, but was surprised when Eddie actually pulled the trigger.
Yes. Eddie had already stated on previous occasions that the primary purpose of the forums was to facilitate the wiki's functions. It made sense that anything significantly distracting from that would be axed.
Mostly good, since I rarely get emotionally invested enough in a forum to have "bad" memories if I can help it. I'd had plenty of experience with places that were far worse then, and are still far worse even today to really get up in arms about most things I saw on old IJBM.
Yes. As others have mentioned, taking the extra step of moving the "no complaining" policy from the wiki proper (where it makes sense), to the forum itself was needlessly restrictive to discussion. Overall, though, deleting IJBM was a good thing, as even though some crap migrated to other areas of the forums, they are not even close to the level of pointless drama than original IJBM ever was.
None. It wasn't a significant factor in my decision to spend less time there.
On IJBM II:
Yes. It seemed like a natural next step for the people who were really upset about the deletion. Though I did expect it to be more Guitar Bizarre'y and less like it is today, which turned out to be a pleasant surprise.
Nope, because I'm here, which makes it too awesome to ever truly die.
Nope, it's mostly good people here, and the smaller community makes it far easier to keep this as a pleasant environment.
My favorite is the people that are here. My least favorite is the tendency to become the designated "complaining about TV Tropes ground for former members", though that has happened far less lately.
It honestly doesn't feel like the original IJBM at all. This is mostly a good thing.
I don't think so. In fact, I think it would be the reverse: if IJBM II had the level of traffic that the original did, IJBM II would be a far different community than what it is now, and I probably wouldn't be interested. Basically take all the problems we've had here, and multiply the amount of users involved by a couple hundred, and you should get an idea of why I feel that way. Small communities have inherent advantages in this regard.
I think that as long as we keep striving to be our own place, and not do things in a reactionary fashion based on other websites, while attempting to prevent ourselves from becoming too insular in the process, we'll be fine.
On IJBM:
I probably was, depending on how you define "active." I liked the thread turnover stuff that Stormtroper mentioned plus the variety of serious and more lighthearted topics there (what Glennmagusharvey said). I disliked some of the petty arguments, grudges, and occasionally disruptive wonderposting that went on there.
No I did not. I even remember at least one staff member saying that it was not likely to be deleted in that "The Idea Of Forum Decay On TV Tropes" thread a few months before the announcement was made.
Not really, I feel like IJBM was a bit of scapegoat then and especially has become one now.
Not particularly, I pretty much avoided it once the intense wonderposting set in except for some garbage sockpuppet posts. I did think it was worth seeing the last few threads and posts that were made before it was deleted though.
I do not really know TV Tropes today well enough to say much besides that IJBM has become a bit of a scapegoat. Maybe its deletion helped led to some of the factional disputes (i.e., SA stuff and the recent departures or bannings of longtime tropers). I would like to think that TV Tropes would be better with IJBM, but that might just be personal bias.
I pretty much exclusively post in Trope Repair Shop and related threads now. My view of TV Tropes has not changed much.
On IJBM II:
I guess I heard some people talk about something like it, but not really.
Yep, I did not think it would last that long.
I guess I am a bit surprised I post here, yeah. As for the second part, I keep coming back because the topics discussed here tend to be pretty varied and people tend to be pretty respectful (more so now than earlier I would say).
I think Glenn made a good point about the simple interface and honestly I feel like having more freedom to post images (especially .gifs) is pretty nice. I also believe that the moderation has been better than it was on IJBM.
As for negatives, I agree with Everest about banned tropers using this place as a fallback. That might not be inherently bad, but it probably does hurt IJBM II's reputation. I am more confident that the staff will get better about handling that kind of thing and drama in the future though. Still, I wonder if discussions lately have become a bit stale because of a lack of new members with different perspectives.
I guess it is more or less similar to the original. I think IJBM had some problems with drama, trolling, and such, but even if IJBM II does not have quite the same issues, I feel like it has problems of its own if that makes any sense. To be honest, my memory of the original is pretty bad at this point.
I am not sure I can judge that since I am not sure I totally understand why it was deleted in the first place.
I would say having new members, but I think that it is probably something like ensuring there is a welcoming environment where people feel free to discuss stuff.
Also, I noticed there's some stuff I didn't answer. If you excuse me...
I guess I'll go with ohitsthisthreadagain.png. While I didn't disagree much with these feelings, shutting down discussion like that is just rude.
Those who flocked in to go all "in your face" about it. Since we're having this thread, I can only laugh now.
My opinion on the whole moderator staff, and specially that of Fast Eddie, has gotten much more negative. As you might tell from this username, my opinion on the community hasn't changed much.
The community.
If it is okay for me to ask, why do you think that IJBM II is nothing like TV Tropes' IJBM?
Glennmagusharvey,
I would like to think that we have a more engaged moderation staff
that's attentive to the needs of the community, and that has made IJBM 2 a better place to both unwind casually and discuss things seriously. What do you think?
I tend to agree with you there, especially about mods here generally being attentive to the needs of the community and being relatively casual. I think there may be some risks associated with that kind of attitude (i.e., banning or not banning a user mostly because he or she is unpopular/popular), but so far that does not seem to have been a major problem here. I am still not super comfortable with the whole "ban request" thing though that might just be a personal hangup.
INUH,
In what sense?
Sorry if that question was a bit confusing. I think I meant to ask whether IJBM would still be around if it had the amount of moderators and the kind of moderation that IJBM II has.
Ninjaclown,
While you're at it, might as well as that question: What is the most embarrassing thing you have seen/typed/heard from here?
I am not sure, maybe any of that stuff about posting here while high would qualify though. I think people under the influence of drugs/alcohol tend to think they are a lot funnier and/or understandable than they really are.
Abyss_Worm,
Alive or flourishing? Because if it means flourishing, the site definitely needs a greater variety of members. Obviously we certainly do not need more people to whine about their comfortable middle class existence or make all their posts all about themselves, but talking about the same thing constantly gets dull and turns people off with the clique-y aspect of it. Also, for example, it's awkward to talk about feminism on a site that's almost entirely male.
I guess I mean alive, since that question was kind of in the context of it being surprising (in my opinion) that IJBM II has lasted this long at all. I agree that conversations have become a bit stale lately, but I am not sure how we really go about solving that problem. I mean, would you prefer that we start talking about different things that most people here are probably not interested in (e.g., sports) or would it be better if we just had more people with dissenting viewpoints (e.g., more outspoken conservatives)?
Because there are less people slinging around extreme opinions and the atmosphere here doesn't leave me frustrated, confused, or really really fucking angry.
To put it another way, think of OTC now and that's how I viewed IJBM then.
Seriously, if you want to talk about feeling nauseous, think of all the things that bug you in OTC being said by your own parents in family dinner conversation. That's pretty much what I've had to deal with.
taken. It took us awhile to figure out what the hell we were doing, and
we're still learning. I'm just glad that was past tense :P
May I add that I'm getting first-hand experience at how strict constructionism/literalism is a pie-in-the-sky ideal and not realistic?
> > Did you ever envision something like IJBM II after IJBM's end was announced?
> I envisioned somebody starting a PHP forum, getting like 4 members and becoming desolate after a week.
I really did feel that keeping the premise "a place for people to complain about stuff" was key to preventing this from being a very short-lived "we're just angry that IJBM disappeared/died" place.
It also helped that we had a pretty good starting crop of members to populate the place.
So if there's anything you need to talk to me about, don't hesitate to do so.
On IJBM:
I was pretty active in IJBM, to the point of being recognized, at least. I liked the diversity of topics, which I haven't really been able to replace--sure all the taken-too-seriously religion and politics and stuff have gone to OTC, but IJBM always had a bunch of inane little things to yammer about and my attempts at starting similar threads here (like that one about the Ivory soap slogan) never really get any replies.
I'd thought about it, but I figured it was safe because Madrugada seemed to truly believe it acted as a quarantine of some kind. You know, the same stupid reasoning that kept Troper Tales around as long as it did.
Not really. To this day I maintain that if it had become a burden on the staff a better solution would have been to introduce subforum-specific moderators to take care of things. That said, I am kind of glad it's gone; I was an idiot back then.
I remember how it went to hell shortly after the deletion announcement, and for most of the remaining time I alternated between thinking it was stupid and fun. I do remember the last few hours, though...for the first time I actually felt sad about it, and I felt ashamed for getting emotional over such a stupid thing.
Re-introducing IJBM as a subforum wouldn't really do much, I don't think. It would essentially be OTC + shitposting.
I like to think they've changed for the better. I'm much less likely to be randomly pissy and argumentative now, though I like to think that's not so much because IJBM is gone but because I've grown as a person.
On IJBM II:
I had actually read GMH's thread about the idea of an IJBM II prior to the deletion, so I knew the concept was being considered but I didn't really think it would go anywhere.
When it started I fully expected it to die within a month or two, but having been here pretty much the whole time I can't really say I'm that surprised. It's developed its own community of sorts, after all, even if said community is still largely tied to that of TVT.
Sometimes I am and sometimes I'm not. I went through a stage of being weirdly resentful toward the place, but I think I'm over that now. The main thing that surprises me now is that I keep coming back despite never having anything to talk about.
I think my least favorite aspect of IJBM2 is that I don't really have a lot of fun here. The most common topics of discussion seem to be media I don't watch/play/partake in, and that gets a bit frustrating at times, because I don't really feel like I have common interests with anyone here.
well do you believe IJBM II has captured the spirit of the original
IJBM? Should it be similar or were there problems with IJBM that IJBM II
has solved?
It's very different from the original IJBM in a lot of ways, but I don't think that's a bad thing. I think it's just sort of natural that when you have a spin-off like this it develops its own community and its own nature. That seems like a cop-out answer, but whatever.
It's hard to say. The moderation style here and that on TVT seem to be so vastly different that it's hard to imagine them co-existing. I think that's one reason why it's for the better that IJBM is its own site now, though. Instead of being under a bunch of moderators who resent the forum's very existence we actually have a bit of freedom with the rules.
Hell if I know. Seems to be doing pretty well on its own, to be honest. Perhaps making it a bit more accessible to people not already in the know about TVT and/or IJBM's community would be a good goal, though. I know the idea of some kind of Welcome page has been thrown about a couple times, but nothing ever really came of it.
That being said, it got much better over time and it's not as over-relaxed as it has been before. The... circumstances surrounding Love Happiness' ban (I forgot which name he used here) may have not been perfect and the handling of the whole matter may have been a bit controversial, but that he got banned so quickly shows much improvement.
Ninjaclown,
The whole blowing up China/WWIII scenarios thing bugs me too, especially when the same kind of thinking is applied to North Korea or Iran. Honestly, I think all of that stuff shows a lack of respect for humanity when it really should be the main focus rather than destroying a rival or showing a country's military might.
CentralAvenue,
The welcome page does sound like a good idea. Maybe we should use this as an opportunity to start working on it.
I think these suggest that we need to get more people on board.
Okay, everyone, on three...one...two...three...AWWWWWWW
"I guess I mean alive, since that question was kind of in the context of it being surprising (in my opinion) that IJBM II has lasted this long at all. I agree that conversations have become a bit stale lately, but I am not sure how we really go about solving that problem. I mean, would you prefer that we start talking about different things that most people here are probably not interested in (e.g., sports) or would it be better if we just had more people with dissenting viewpoints (e.g., more outspoken conservatives)?"
Different things. Admittedly, I'm not all too knowledgeable or keen about sports, but hey, it's a learning experience as long as the person isn't a know-nothing know-it-all like many Internet denizens are. Part of the reason I expressed staleness sentiments was because I get tired of being unable to follow constant anime talks.
As for dissenting viewpoints, like I said, just having a more equal biological sex ratio is enough to promote more constructive discussion. I don't believe political views are as important as how you argue them. Heck, I'm sympathetic towards anarchism. A lot of times, political arguments get tiring simply because people keep bringing up points refuted a thousand times and insist on stubbornly defending them.