The idea that male is default

Vivi · 2011-10-20 08:23:43

@AHR: That also kind of stems from how a lot of guys don't dress like girls, compliment each others looks, etc. But girls do all those things.

AHR · 2011-10-20 08:24:47

And a lot of that stems from the fact that guys are never really exposed to females just being females. Females get males just being males. There is no token, no non default for them, they just are.

I think this is a big reason for that.

Vivi · 2011-10-20 08:26:04

Agreed.

PrincessApricot · 2011-10-20 08:26:06

And this is why being a girl rocks, and why male being "default" is to the detriment of men everywhere.

Vivi · 2011-10-20 08:26:33

I switch between wishing I was a girl and loving being a guy frequently.

Counterclock · 2011-10-20 08:29:41

It's not wonder you're defending sexism then, Good to know you like promoting the problem ^_^

Vivi · 2011-10-20 08:30:56

I don't promote sexism and you know it.

PrincessApricot · 2011-10-20 08:32:08

^_^;

Vivi · 2011-10-20 08:32:34

Don't look at me like that, Counterclock.

Counterclock · 2011-10-20 08:33:34

Actually, I was talking to Apricot, since she revealed her sexism...

Vivi · 2011-10-20 08:35:21

I don't think she is promoting it either.

Also, talking to yourself isn't healthy.

Counterclock · 2011-10-20 08:50:19

Tell, what's the problem with changing it to be gender neutral.

Other than the effort it would take.

IanExMachina · 2011-10-20 08:53:49

I feel the better label to have gender egalitarian, as then it doesn't lead to assumptions of only focussing on hardships to one side.

Central Avenue · 2011-10-20 10:48:22

From the link in the OP:

I don't get this. Even if they had said "Women's Deodorant" and "Men's Deodorant"...what's the point of listing them separately when they're on the same side of the same aisle?

MillerCross · 2011-10-20 11:07:22

Oh hey, random annoying derail based on emotion, linguistics and sheer delicious genderwank

we haven't had those in a while.

Anyway, here's the deal: Language is, first and foremost, humanity's set of tools for communication. And we change our tools according to our own basical needs.

The problem with English in general, though, is that it doesn't possess a neutral gender term that doesn't dehumanize the subject (It), treats them as plural (See what I did there?) and there is one that is just relatively unwieldy.

So, what can we do? Can we introduce an actually gender neutral term into the language that doesn't fail where the others did? Yes, but it'd take a long time to catch up. And even if we did...then why would we? Why is it so necessary to fix the English language beyond the legendary failure that it is today? Because I don't really see the point in fixing such an inane and relatively unimportant mistake.

what I do definetly think, though, is that such gender neutral terms should be used instead of "he". Or just avoid pronouns altogether, like a boss. Not like it's hard in English, where gender barely affects words such as "the poster", "the person" and so on.

captainbrass · 2011-10-20 12:34:23

OK, I'm probably rather late on this, but I always thought that when you referred to "man" in a neutral sense (i.e. the human species) it was written "Man". Having said that, this usage has been criticised as sexist since the 70s at least and you hardly see it used in modern writing.

I don't see what's wrong with "they", except from a Grammar Nazi point of view. Yes, there is possible confusion with plural "they", but most of the time you can tell when it's being used for gender neutrality as opposed to for indicating more than one.

Chagen · 2011-10-20 12:54:24

If the Germans can use "Sie" for "they", "you", "it" and "she", then we can use singular "they".

And we have both singular and plural "you" as well.

BlackHumor · 2011-10-20 13:42:01

@Apricot: "The average American needs the small routines of getting ready for
work. As he shaves or blow-dries his hair or pulls on his panty hose,
he is easing himself by small stages into the demands of the day."

Sound wrong? Then "he" and "man" are not gender neutral.

@AHR: Your English professor is FAR behind the times. Singular "they" has been grammatical since Shakespeare.

All Nines · 2011-10-20 14:02:26

Guys. Guys. Can we go a day without arguing?

MillerCross · 2011-10-20 14:05:34

>IJBM

>Not arguing

Anyway, we're supposed to argue and discuss. The problem is when the arguments are based in attacking everyone and not making a point.

All Nines · 2011-10-20 14:09:31

"Anyway, we're supposed to argue and discuss."

I feel like "debate and discuss" would be better; when I think of "arguments", I think of condescension and flaming. Which is to say, exactly what happened in this thread.

MillerCross · 2011-10-20 14:17:12

Eh, honestly, the forum is way too informal for that. And I'd say the problem was not "flaming" (Which is an ill defined term that barely describes anything, anyway), but the fact that the arguments by themselves in here were lame and the usual shit that comes with genderwank threads. Add the linguistic angle to it and...well...here we are.

PrincessApricot · 2011-10-20 14:25:28

@BlackHumor: Well, having read the article the page links to, I can certainly understand a little of the reason why I keep getting told not use "they".

As for the clever statement:

"The average American needs the small routines of getting ready for work. As he shaves or blow-dries his hair or pulls on his panty hose, he is easing himself by small stages into the demands of the day."

As stated in the page you linked, there are indeed masculine connotations, which is natural considering the very topic of this thread: the idea that male is default. The above quote is simply poorly written and manipulates context. It SHOULD be:

"Average Americans need the small routines of getting ready for
work. As men shave, and women blow-dry hair or pull on panty hose, they ease into the demands of the day."

It's also less wordy and gets rid of the extra "or".

Now consider:

"The average American needs the small routines of getting ready for
work. As they shave or blow-dry their hair or pull on their panty hose, they ease themselves by small stages into the demands of the day."

Ergh; I'll stick with "he" and "she", thank you very much.

Your article does give a bit of ammunition for debates with my professor, however, which is nice.

AHR · 2011-10-20 14:35:26

Black Humor: She knows it's being used, she was referring to her class. As in, one day, we might not get points off, but today we will.

But she is a tad flaky so...

MillerCross · 2011-10-20 14:38:26

The point of BlackHumor's example is that the pronoun "he" doesn't work as you think it does (Gender neutral). The fact that you had to resort to a copout sentence where you don't use a pronoun pretty much proves his point.

And I don't see what's wrong with the last sentence. Of course, you can always take out the "Average American" bit and turn it into "Americans" if it's too much of a problem, but that'd be changing the rules of the game and that's a no-no.

AHR · 2011-10-20 14:41:12

My annoyance with a lack of a gender neutral pronoun is purely selfish -- a desire to write stories without giving away if someone is a girl or a boy.

MillerCross · 2011-10-20 14:43:23

You can always do it like the pros do and just evade pronouns. Hell, it's not like most Romantic Languages where every single word gives away gender.

PrincessApricot · 2011-10-20 14:50:59

I feel the part of the problem is what I mentioned before: "he" and "she" are much more colorful than "they". As such, it's possible to get away with overusing them a bit, as opposed to littering an essay with "they" and similar words.

However, if a suitable replacement for "he" and "she" were to be created, the blandness and repition would be much more pronounced, leading to its damnation amongst English professors everywhere.

"The point of BlackHumor's example is that the pronoun "he" doesn't work
as you think it does (Gender neutral). The fact that you had to resort
to a copout sentence where you don't use a pronoun pretty much proves
his point. "

I have already stated that "he" isn't TRULY gender neutral, but is treated as such whenever possible.

>copout

In a situation where "he" does not fit (such as when women are INCLUDED, and thus, an exception), no singular pronoun can be used because it doesn't exist. Well, it does, as BlackHumor's article more or less demonstrates, but most English professors will strike it down faster than you can say " ".

All Nines · 2011-10-20 15:20:45

""flaming" (Which is an ill defined term that barely describes anything, anyway)"

How so? I feel like it's pretty clear-cut.

"Eh, honestly, the forum is way too informal for that."

Too informal to refrain from insults on the opponent's intelligence and/or character? If we're going to accept circular, overly-tense, poorly-justified arguments as the norm because reining ourselves in would be too formal, I'll leave.

captainbrass · 2011-10-20 15:38:38

Anyone remember the thread(s) a while back about the shortcomings of OTC? Well, one of them was gender-related threads that always ended up in tears, and another was, exactly, "circular, overly-tense, poorly-justified arguments".

I hope we don't go too far down that path.

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The idea that male is default

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