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The idea that male is default

135

Comments

  • NovaNova
    edited 2011-10-20 05:45:52
    If you must eat a phoenix, boil it, do not roast it. This only encourages their mischievous habits.
    I dunno about you, but those certainly look like a gender neutral uses. 

    I dunno about you, but

    The use of "he" to refer to a person of unknown gender was prescribed by
    manuals of style and school textbooks from the early 18th century until
    around the 1960s

    That certainly doesn't sound too much like something that is still in everyday use to me.
  • PrincessApricotPrincessApricot
    Give them pleasure - the same pleasure they have when they wake up from a nightmare.
    Political correctness demands that such be removed from books, but people still believe it nonetheless.
  • NovaNova
    If you must eat a phoenix, boil it, do not roast it. This only encourages their mischievous habits.
    no

    they really don't
  • PrincessApricotPrincessApricot
    Give them pleasure - the same pleasure they have when they wake up from a nightmare.
    I would continue this pointless battle, but I have better things to do.

    Thus, I ask a final question: Why then, do people use it as if it were indeed gender neutral?
  • NovaNova
    If you must eat a phoenix, boil it, do not roast it. This only encourages their mischievous habits.
    They don't

    That's why

    It's really that simple. In community at large, nobody, ever, uses he as a gender neutral pronoun. Seriously. It is the masculine pronoun.
  • PrincessApricotPrincessApricot
    Give them pleasure - the same pleasure they have when they wake up from a nightmare.
    You didn't answer the question.

    When referring to hypothetical individuals, "he", "men", and "man" are usually used, unless an author is using alteration to avoid controversy (a method which I find very awkward an unappealing).

    There is that, and the opening post as well, of course.

    My every English teacher has shot me down for using "one" and "they" in an effort to be politically correct. What was stated? That I need to use "he".

    This is an age old artifact of language and society, and it is not going to go away until either a huge and extensive controversy erupts or he/she themselves become outdated.

    But if this is not the case, then explain it to me. Why?
  • NovaNova
    If you must eat a phoenix, boil it, do not roast it. This only encourages their mischievous habits.
    Because 'he', 'him', 'man' and 'men' are masculine pronouns.

    That is all.

    If your teachers taught you otherwise, then your teachers are fuck ups.

    Seriously. That's it. Full stop. 'He' is a masculine pronoun in exactly the same way 'she' is a feminine pronoun.
  • PrincessApricotPrincessApricot
    edited 2011-10-20 06:25:25
    Give them pleasure - the same pleasure they have when they wake up from a nightmare.
    When you are referring to hypothetical persons, you must not use "one", "it", "they" or anything of the sort. Just how it is.

    While "he" may be a masculine pronoun, its usage doubles as neutral for general purposes.

    "Each man who enters the bar must wear formal attire", for example, is intended as a rule for men AND women.

    Is this stupid? Extremely. But generally speaking, this is how it is done. Using "person" or "people" in the example would sound stupid, so we are left with something of a choice between making great strides in the name of women's rights and using proper English etiquette.

    I'll leave the great strides in society to protesters and women with the money to sue large comapnies; I would much rather remain a grammar Nazi.
  • GhilzGhilz
    Checking the OP's link... So what constitute a "Women's Sleeping Bag"? Being orange? My camping tent is orange, guess it must be a women's tent.
  • IcalasariIcalasari
    No rainbow star
    "'He' and 'man' are not gender-neutral, and have not been considered as such for many, many years at this point."

    "'He' and 'man' are not gender-neutral"

    "'He' and 'man'"

    He-man



    Anyways, Cygan, there is a time and a place to argue things like this. Princess Apricot could argue this with some professors, but others? She would have better luck teaching a dog to speak a human language. I know that with some professors I'd rather use he as a gender neutral pronoun over getting a bad grade with them refusing to reconsider
  • NovaNova
    edited 2011-10-20 06:44:41
    If you must eat a phoenix, boil it, do not roast it. This only encourages their mischievous habits.
    For someone who claims to be a grammar nazi, you sure don't know a lot about grammar -_-;

    The idea that 'he', 'him' and 'man' are masculine pronouns comes from the idea of grammatical gender- something that English usually lacks. However, we do have several sets of grammatical pronouns that are traditionally assigned genders. These pronouns are labeled under three sets- masculine pronouns (he, his, him, himself- subject, possessive pronoun, object, and reflexive pronoun respectively), feminine pronouns (she, her, hers, herself- subject, possessive adjective, possessive pronoun and object respectively) and neutered pronouns (it, its' and itself, I'm sure you can guess which is which). Each of these words carries with itself the connotation that the object named is gendered (even if that gender is neutered).

    Now, man is a tricky one, for you see, man used to be gender-neutral. Over a millennia ago, the word literally meant 'the thinker' and was used to refer to a person in general, without having any gendered connotations. (Interestingly, 'men' also was not used as a gender-specific pronoun'  Back then, we had different words to refer to men and women- wǣpmann and wīfmann respectively, meaning 'male human' and 'female human'. However, over time, the word 'man' picked up masculine connotations, and it was during the 19th/20th century that the word ceased to be gender-neutral at all, instead being a masculine pronoun.

    The phrase you are looking for is the 'generic he'. Unfortunately, this has largely fallen out of usage, due to the connotations of the word leading to feelings of exclusion.

    Strictly speaking, the example you provided above should read "Each person who enters the bar must wear formal attire" if it is referring to both men and women.

    ^ As I said, I don't care whether Apricot uses it or not. I'm just annoyed by his insistence that 'he' is gender neutral, when it isn't.
  • MadassAlexMadassAlex
    One foot in front of the other, every day.
    Fun fact: "man" was gender neutral in Old English. "Woman" refferred specifically to a married female, all other females being "men".

    Nothing further to contribute, but I thought that was kinda neat.
  • NovaNova
    If you must eat a phoenix, boil it, do not roast it. This only encourages their mischievous habits.
    And I just noted why above ;D
  • MadassAlexMadassAlex
    One foot in front of the other, every day.
    Yep, I was ninja'd pretty hardcore. Dx
  • PrincessApricotPrincessApricot
    edited 2011-10-20 07:09:27
    Give them pleasure - the same pleasure they have when they wake up from a nightmare.
    Language is something dictated by society.

    Ireland's freaking supreme court decided that for legal purposes, it would be considered "gender neutral". As I stated before, "he" can be either masculine or neutral, as reflected by its use basically everywhere.

    Given that this gets us nowhere, I will simply link an article: http://www.enotes.com/topic/Markedness

    If even that is not enough, then perhaps I merely need to rephrase my statement. Masculine pronouns are usually used in place of gender neutral pronouns, both because there are no neutral personal pronouns and because phrases such as "people" and "one" are heavily frowned upon and often considered wrong.

    Also, I'm a she not a he. I would perhaps comply and just use "she" all the time, if not for the fact that doing so would make every paper I write appear to have feminist overtones.
  • IcalasariIcalasari
    No rainbow star
    I remember words being made for this. They just never caught on

    I think they were either e/shim/sher or xe/xim/xer
  • ChagenChagen
    [tɕagɛn]
    Goddammit why doesn't everyone just use "they"?

    It's been documented since 1500s. It's perfectly correct.
  • PrincessApricotPrincessApricot
    edited 2011-10-20 07:22:04
    Give them pleasure - the same pleasure they have when they wake up from a nightmare.
    That would be a reference error more than half the time. (have you been through college yet?)

    It sounds dumb too.
  • CounterclockCounterclock
    Belief
    What sounds dumb to me is continuing a tradition just because it's convenient.
  • PrincessApricotPrincessApricot
    Give them pleasure - the same pleasure they have when they wake up from a nightmare.
    It is convenient.

    Very.

    What sounds dumb to me is tossing out efficiency for no reason other than to get rid of tradition.
  • CounterclockCounterclock
    Belief
    I'd rather get rid of tradition if tradition proves itself harmful to human beings and their goals.

    Sexism is harmful in the long run, but I suppose it wouldn't matter to someone who can continually block it out because of "Tradition"
  • AHRAHR
    edited 2011-10-20 07:47:46
    Chagen: My english professor says to expect it to be grammatically correct in a decade or so. But until then, to use he/she

    This debate reminds me of a time when in my women's class, an Episcopal priest told us how replacing God's "he" with "she" and "father" with "mother" was an interesting experience, because some people got REALLY pissed at it.

    People don't like things not done out of social norms. Hell, trying to spend two dollars on a one dollar item would still annoy people. That's the main reason people see no reason to change it. To a lot of people, it is normal, and they think it's a way bigger deal than it really is.

    /sociology newb 
  • IcalasariIcalasari
    No rainbow star
    AHR: Clearly humans are the problem. Kill all humans and the problem is solved. Simple

    Now who wants to volunteer? :D?
  • ChagenChagen
    [tɕagɛn]
    You guys also have to remember: English pronouns are closed. English forbids adding new pronouns without some serious work It's ingrained into the language. The only time the pronouns have changed are from sond changes, such as when "Ich" changed to "I" or "wīr" became "we". Otherwise, adding new pronouns is heavily restricted. This is why all these new fancy pronouns always are never really accepted by the English speech community.

    This isn't Japanese, where the pronouns are open (new ones can be added at any time) and it's the verbs that are closed.

  • PrincessApricotPrincessApricot
    edited 2011-10-20 08:15:35
    Give them pleasure - the same pleasure they have when they wake up from a nightmare.
    "I'd rather get rid of tradition if tradition proves itself harmful to human beings and their goals.

    Sexism
    is harmful in the long run, but I suppose it wouldn't matter to someone
    who can continually block it out because of "Tradition""

    Honestly? I don't believe the he/she thing is harmful at all. In fact, I actually consider it a rather nice feature of English. It not only reveals biases, but it also adds a bit of character to speech. It sounds more colorful to be specific like that.

    And as an added bonus, female protagonists, women in certain sports, and so on, are all the more impressive thanks to this. Of course, this is questionable when considering a number of implications, but I nonetheless enjoy its positives.
  • ViviVivi
    $80+ per session
    Gonna have to side with Apri on this one.
  • AHRAHR
    edited 2011-10-20 08:23:14
    Chagen: Which is why "they" is going to eventually be grammatically acceptable in the singular.


  • ViviVivi
    $80+ per session
    I prefer to use he/she to they. Like Apri said, more colorful. Adds character.

    If someone wants to be referred to as "they", I'll call them that. Otherwise, he/she.
  • PrincessApricotPrincessApricot
    edited 2011-10-20 08:22:39
    Give them pleasure - the same pleasure they have when they wake up from a nightmare.
    ^^Probably because everyone tends to USE it as singular.

    Think of how often English professors red ink papers because of it. It's only a matter of time before they all give up.
  • AHRAHR
    edited 2011-10-20 08:23:24
    Apricot: It's not giving up. It's an evolution of language. Like the phasing out of thee thou and all that stuff.

    Also, I dislike male being the default because it really shows in a lot of other areas. More than you think.

    For example?

    LARP session.

    Girls play guys or girls, but Guys will only ever play other guys. Because Girls get to play "themselves" or the "default". Guys can do the same thing, it just happens to be both are male.
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