I am not ready to quit TV Tropes yet

Malkavian

I'd say the opinion of would-be writers thinking they know better than Shakespeare is pretty much everywhere on the site.

That said, after reading the argument, I don't think it's just a geek thing to disdain classics. I mean reading alone is a dirty word among most people in my area and I've met many non-geeks who refuse to watch a movie that predates Star Wars.

vandro

That blogpost isn't as harsh as the SA thread, but I see your point.

It seems that I had my definitions mixed up. anti-intellectualism seemed to me to be: Anti-Knowledge, not only no to literature, but no to math, science and philosophy as well.

Although to be fair, I do consider the science majors to be more important than humanities, not because they are superior, but because writing a book is not a mean to go and colonize space. If we ever reach post-scarcity, then the difference in usefullness would be meaningless.

Malkavian

(sigh) Humans create stories, art, literature, entertainment, and all those wonderful things because they are a sustenance to us just as important as any other. You can talk about all the practical stuff science does, but no human being in the world doesn't have in him a thirst for stories or some inspiration to do the great from those stories.

MillerCross

Also, blah blah fiction inspires scientists blah blah science inspires arts blah blah trying to establish a hierarchy on knowledge is dumbtastic blah blah

glennmagusharvey

Frankly speaking, I'm fine with some of the anti-intellectual-ness.

I think that the worlds of academia and art/film/music/etc. criticism need a bit of shaking up in terms of questioning their tastes.

They are just as likely to get stuck in a rut of taste as anyone else is.  Not to mention that, as I've observed before, it's quite possible to read more and more meaning into anything.  What's to say that, say, Uta~Kata has less philosphical meaning than does Neon Genesis Evangelion?  What's to say that the lyrics of Tay Zonday's "Chocolate Rain" have less depth than do the lyrics of the Beatles' "Eleanor Rigby"?

Myrmidon

Literary Criticism got there years ago, Glenn.

glennmagusharvey

Got where?

Myrmidon

Disbelief in meaning being inherent in the text and blatant disregard for any kind of distinction between high and low culture.

Malkavian

Dude, I graduated thanks to an academic paper about Batman.

People complain that the literary world needs to be shaken up, but that's exactly what people like Hemmingway, Wilde, and Lovecraft that people bitch about did.

My favorite TV Tropes moment was being called pretentious for saying Dracula and The Adventures of Sherlock Holmes were my favorite books.

vandro

I do not disagree it inspires scientists nor that people thrive on it, the only reason I became interested in science at all was, funnily enough, Beakman's world, the only reason I want to explore space is the myriad of space operas, I love detective stories, juan_carlos can attest. What I mean is that it is important to focus resources in science. What a writer needs to work his craft is a pen and sheets of paper, hell, a storyteller just needs his voice and memory, a scientist needs more complex materials than that.

Fuck damn, ninja.

MillerCross

...Glenn, you disappoint me, man.

One) What you mentioned is not anti intelllectualism. At all. Embracing the possiblilty of other works having deeper meaning is not the problem at hand. Dismissing the possiblity that old works have a meaning that has been ascribed to them through time is anti intellectualism and is what's going on at TvT most of the time. Not to mention that, as a critic myself, I find it downright insulting to be called some sort of stupid bastard because I enjoy works with a bent for actually trying to be something beyond good stories (Such as Citizen Kane)

Two) As Malkavian mentioned, what you mentioned is not old, by any way of means. Most of the people who have been practically canonized by literature critics were, at one time or another, so called enfante terrible writers who dared to do things people at the time considered shocking and the like. 

MillerCross

^^ Ah, OK. That kinda makes sense. (Although movies need more than that.)

Malkavian

Oscar Wilde was pretty much the Axel Rose of his day. He was a tremendous prick and deviant from society that moral guardians despised but were popular with people for his talent.

Then he flushed it all away because he couldn't let shit go.

Also what the people who fap to LOTR, Star Wars, and Haruhi don't realize is that a big part of what makes them great is how much they're taking and adapting from older canon and classics.

vandro

Juan_Carlos:And that's why it is sad when movies get stupidly high budgets and suck. I'm looking at you, green lantern.

Malkavian

I'm more bothered when movies have huge budgets, suck, and are huge successes like the Bayformers but that's another discussion.

Vivi

I just think it's funny that Deboss called such an old story cliche.

vandro

I understand your gripe with it, but I my gripe is more with the money being lost that could have been used somewhere else, like to build a hospital or something. Transformers suck, but it at least wasn't a literal waste of money. At least not for the investors.

Malkavian

^^Deboss has long since proved himself to be one of the worst sort of 'critics' ever. He displays a pure dismissal of anything in the world that doesn't appeal to his very limited sensibilities. Most of TV Tropes aren't as bad as him, but more follow similar problems to him than is good for a site with an idea like TV Tropes.

I mean I accept the fanfic secion for Harry Potter is going to be bigger than Paradise Lost or Journey To The West because of contemporary tastes and like I said that's hardly a nerd-only thing, but going so far as to demonize 'the other side' because they don't automatically respect what you like is ridiculously childish.

^I see your frustration, but that's a slippery slope to say what's 'more deserving' of money.

RocketDude

I'd contribute to this discussion, but I can't really say that I'm a fan of anything older than The Outsiders (the original novel).

Malkavian

Do some looking out there. A lot of stuff is actually a lot easier to read than you think and stuff like Beowulf, The Count of Monte Cristo, and The Divine Comedy is full of awesome stuff.

Hell, considering Inferno is just Dante making self-insert fanfic where he teams up with vergil to snark around Hell, nerds should by all rights love it.

RocketDude

Well, it's not that I find it hard to read or understand so much as I don't think I can muster the effort to actually read it.

I did read 1,001 Arabian Nights once on my own time, though.

Malkavian

Well, that's something. My advice is just to do research. I can guarantee you that if you like something it blatantly cribs from something early that's great. It's not something you have to do, but I think it's good for the soul

Like for example, you know that Marvel Superhero Thor? I heard Stan Lee and Jack Kirby totally took him from something... forget what though...

ClockworkUniverse

So...this thread has been pretty questionable for its entire run in terms of importing drama, but it's been relatively loosely moderated while we thought it might be important and have some actual usefulness.

As that time is past, we're locking it up.