TV Tropes - Enforced Crapsaccharine World

Vorpy

BaronGackle, did you ban Nyarly? Or are you somebody else?

You are the only person I know that seems to even regard the mirror wiki as something significant...

Stormtroper

I'm inclined to agree with Don Zabu and thatguythere47 on this. Backlash against complaining sometimes gets out of hand and gets things done that, well, shouldn't. From the top of my mind there's the shoving of "You Fail X Forever" into the YMMV category, the Asperchu culling and partly Sonichu (that is, some objectively true entries that got culled).

^I don't think linking to Darth Wiki from a main article was ever not against the rules.

At one point, it wasn't against the rules, though many negative tropes now in DW weren't at the time.

Nova

I dunno.

When I read TVTropes, I prefer to read through the examples and form my own opinions.

Not have other people's opinions forced upon me.

Deboss

From the top of my mind there's the shoving of "You Fail X Forever" into the YMMV category

It's no longer there, but they've had their names changed.

Stormtroper

^^ A page can tell you about the fandom's opinions without forcing them upon you. The problem is with tropers being unable to do this.

^ Yeah, I noticed. Still, the blatant importance they gave to the negative nature of the trope when the original change was discussed sort of buggged me.

Nova

Exactly. And as the current contributors are unable to leave their opinions off the page, what is Eddie supposed to do?

He can either say 'No opinions on the page', devote god knows how much time to removing it, or drive away a large section of the userbase.

Deboss

I believe Eddie's reasoning behind the switch to Artistic License was that You Fail X Forever was encouraging fault finding, rather than tropefying.  After much arguing, we managed to convince him that they served a purpose, namely as proto-Hollywood X tropes which we could scoop similar examples out of.  The switch to ArtisticLicense was the compromise to keep the entire group from getting deleted.

Turtle

"Disappointment is anger for wimps." - House

Stop trying to make everything inoffensive.  The snarky manner in which bad shows or bad elements in shows are mocked, sometimes rather brutally, is yet another fun part of the site.  Besides, when you try to pull stunts like renaming discussions, you're taking a side, whether intentionally or not.  I know if it were my discussion that were renamed, I'd say "screw it, even the mods want me gone."

But if people are so set on barring negativity, sitting around a campfire, and singing "Kumbaya," then it's better to just dispel the notion that it's possible to please everyone.  Because it isn't.  Frankly I would rather see such pages nuked
than have them watered down or hidden from anyone who doesn't know about
Darth Wiki.  Just get rid of the secrecy and politics - if you don't
like the page, just get rid of it.

Nova

> The snarky manner in which bad shows or bad elements in shows are mocked, sometimes rather brutally, is yet another fun part of the site.

No. It really, really isn't.

Stormtroper

Exactly. And as the current contributors are unable to leave their opinions off the page, what is Eddie supposed to do?

He can either say 'No opinions on the page', devote god knows how much time to removing it, or drive away a large section of the userbase.

I wasn't faulting him on that. I usually agree with what he does about it.

Khwarizmi

TV Tropes and snark.,, hm.  I did kind of enjoy it, but I don't disagree with the decision to be rid of it.  In particular, I don't like how it was contributing to the misconception that the site was about mocking clichés, rather than identifying tropes.

>But if people are so set on barring negativity, sitting around a campfire, and singing "Kumbaya," then it's better to just dispel the notion that it's possible to please everyone. Because it isn't. Frankly I would rather see such pages nuked than have them watered down or hidden from anyone who doesn't know about Darth Wiki.  Just get rid of the secrecy and politics - if you don't like the page, just get rid of it.

If that's how you feel, fine, but there are people who enjoy the page and would probably rather it wasn't nuked altogether.  I don't think Eddie likes to nuke things altogether if it can be avoided, providing they aren't in conflict with Wiki policy.

And no, nobody is talking about sitting around a campfire singing "Kumbaya".  Please don't exaggerate.

@BaronGrackle: Way to make me feel like a jerk, dude.

I haven't been fair to you, sorry.  I think it's pretty obvious that the TV Tropes I want is not the TV Tropes you want, and it's a big Internet so there's no reason why we should be in conflict over this.  I'm afraid the attitude and tone of the Mirror Wiki just rather put my back up a bit.

Turtle

The Mirror Wiki is a good idea in theory, but the front page reeks of rudeness and resentment.  That's the kind of negativity that does need to go away, and I suppose that's the kind that the TV Tropes staff is dedicated to squashing.  They just... go too far with it.

RedEyedAbyss

"Stop trying to make everything inoffensive. The snarky manner in which bad shows or bad elements in shows are mocked, sometimes rather brutally, is yet another fun part of the site."

Tell me, have you ever encountered this snarky manner attacking something you actually liked?

snowbull

^Yes. I specifically go out of my way to find people dissing and saying why something I like is bad, for reasons I don't understand.

Khwarizmi

I can't do that.  I tend to find myself agreeing with them, and then I don't derive as much enjoyment from the series I like as I did before.

snowbull

Googling "X sucks" is the first thing I do after I decide that I really like X.

Turtle

^^^^Yes.  But you know what?  I man up and ignore it if I don't agree.  It sucks to see a work you like bashed, but that's the price you pay for having a wiki that isn't horribly censored.

Vorpy

I like Twisted Metal 3. The Twisted Metal page reeks of hatred and fanon discontinuity of that game. I liked the American Godzilla movie. The Godzilla page is filled with fanon discontinuity and rejection of the american movie. They were both really good, regardless if somebody hates them.

Khwarizmi

^^ Tell me, do you consider Wikipedia's notability policy to be censorship?  What about Wiktionary's preference for short dictionary entries rather than full-length articles?  Is the fact that Narutopedia doesn't document Bleach a form of censorship, or the fact that the TARDIS Wiki doesn't document EastEnders?

Stormtroper

Tell me, have you ever encountered this snarky manner attacking something you actually liked?

Yes. If this means being aware of the works' faults, all the better for me.

Vorpy

I aim to nuke the "this is what EVERYONE THINKS so it's not an opinion anymore" statements from the main page that are written into the Troper Work description.

Komodin

Tell me, have you ever encountered this snarky manner attacking something you actually liked?

Being a Sonic fan, yeah, damn near every day.

RedEyedAbyss

I have noticed the Sonic 2006 page was a lot more vitriolic before.

Komodin

The Sonic the Hedgehog series page was a lot more vitriolic before as well.

Turtle

^x6:

Respectively:

Yes, maybe, no, and no.  Those last two are because their wikis have very specific source franchises to document.  TV Tropes can't be compared because it's a lot more general than that.

Khwarizmi

But Wikipedia aims to document only reliably sourced information, and Wiktionary aims only to be a dictionary, not an encyclopedia.  And TV Tropes aims to be a lighthearted (but not hostile) guide to the various tropes used in writing fiction.  It's no more general in its aims than that.

Turtle

Notable =/= reliably sourced.

And fiction - just "fiction" without any constraints - is pretty darned general.

Khwarizmi

But it's not every single possible aspect of fiction, it's a specific focus.  TV Tropes is not a wiki about everything, it is a wiki about tropes.

Turtle

And before that it was about television tropes.  But the scope of the site has expanded more than once.  Why was it just fine for it to evolve then but now there's no room for it?

thatguythere47

What's that one rule? The longer a wiki exists the more general it becomes? first it was tv tropes, then it was tropes, then it was tropes, works pages, important people biographies, etc. Soon tvtropes will become a repository for everything fiction related, its just the natural progression of wikis.