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Comments
Batman is specifically not a paragon. He wields fear as his tool, not inspiration. Batman makes criminals afraid, Superman makes good people feel safe. Big difference.
I guess I should have just said the early and relevant superheroes today.
Most of the problem of the Dark Age is that it simply aimed for a new demographic in a shitty way. I'd also argue that lot of theose comics were not really in the super hero genre, but that's just me.
Well, yeah, there's that, definetly, but I think there's stuff about him that is meant to be inspirational, if only from a reader's perspective.
>I would have agreed with you at one point, but the Dark Age threw that notion out the window. They've been getting somewhat better about it recently, but they still try to throw in morally ambiguous actions and situations that read as hokey far too often.
You know, aspects of it are cheesy but I have a special place in my heart for the overwrought drama of Spider-man and the X-men.
Granted that's super pre-dark ages and all...
^I don't disagree, but you could never do a scene like with the jumper in All-Star Superman with Batman.
You would be wrong there, actually. Superman can also be affected by magic, and anybody who is simply stronger than him, such as Darkseid or Bizarro Superman, can also fight him to a standstill.
Batman is indeed a paragon as well, but he's a different type. Batman is the type of person who is trying to right wrongs in any way he can, and he absolutely refuses to kill anyone. But Batman also hides in the shadows to do his work, while Superman is upfront and honest about it.
Their methodologies are very different. Batman is a regular human taking on threats that by all rights should be far out of his weight range. His motivations are simple; the criminal underworld is responsible for the death of his parents, and so he is trying to make the world a better place so this does not happen again.
Superman, though, is different. He fights the good fight not because it has cost him anything, but simply because it is the right thing to do.
The conflict born of Superman is often not just action-based. There are moral quandaries to be had, interpersonal conflict, and other similar conflicts that take the place that action takes in other stories.
The best example I have of this is that one story where Superman is driven to help as many people as he can, because he can always hear them. His hearing picks up the sound of people being hurt dozens of miles away, and he has to help them, because that's just who he is.
That's the difference between Superman and Batman; the reason behind what they do, and the methods they take to achieve their ends.
Shiro Sagisu did the soundtrack for Bleach?
Hmm, I might watch this after all.
On a related note, people who talk about Superman and Batman hating each other need to be punched.
Supes and Bats are bestest buds.
he could pull it off with a character he knows, like, say Steph Brown or something, but you're right.
In fact, the whole difference between Batman and Superman is that Batman fights for Justice, whereas Superman fights for Good. He would save a kitty while Batman would be all like "I don't have time for this, Dick, stop calling me about my need to get pussy >:["
Batman is specifically not a paragon. He wields fear as his tool, not inspiration. Batman makes criminals afraid, Superman makes good people feel safe. Big difference.
Batman tries his very best to save the people of Gotham. As Batman, he does this by wielding fear as his tool, yes.
But what was that storyline where we saw Batman as Bruce Wayne using his vast wealth to fund orphanages or something?
Batman wields fear as his weapon, yeah, but that's not the entirety of his character. He does his very best to save the citizens of Gotham from their own hatred, and it's in that methodology, that way of thinking, that he's a hero and a paragon.
Superman inspires you to help others, whereas Batman would inspire you to save others from themselves.
Granted, I may be misreading it, and that line of thinking is probably wrong as nobody has ever tied redemption into that no matter how much they are linked.
Yeah, the Dark Age comics tried too hard to appeal to the MATURE, BLOOD, SEX AND GRITTY LANGUAGE demographic, and that's where it lost the inspirational touch it had had before.
But my point stands, that not all superheroes are like that, and not all superheroes stand as an inspiration.
Now I'm reminded of that suprisingly dark scene in the first Superman movie where Supes saves the cat and the kid goes into to tell her mom and the mom screams 'Haven't I told you to stop telling lies?' and smacks her.
That poor kid, imagine the trauma of being a Cassandra there.
^I think we're using paragon in a different model here. I'm think more as the character themselves making themselves something to aspire to. As Batman he's cold and scary and as Bruce Wayne, for all the good he does with his money, he acts like Paris Hilton.
I don't think Batman sees himself as a role model the way Supes does.
I don't think they should be "bestest buds", but I definetly feel that the right stories between Bruce and Clark involve them respecting each other and looking out for each other's back.
Like, say, that time Clark gave Bruce a piece of kryptonite in case he ever goes mad. It's a sign of trust and respect that simply you don't find these days.
Although that issue ended up with Batman having a vault full of kryptonite in secret, so...
Superman and Batman have an interesting relationship.
Some of Batman's darker actions would certainly cause Superman to disapprove of him.
I mean, look at the difference between the two in Kingdom Come. I can certainly see that actually happening, given enough development.
Yeah, that is a better way of putting it. Superman is an inspiration to those who do good, and Batman is an inspiration to those who try to be just.
Just look up the music on YouTube or something, bro; Bleach ain't worth the viewing. Well, the first two or three seasons, maybe; it was surprisingly good for about twenty volumes.
I don't think there's anything that could possibly be worth reading for 20 volumes.
>I don't think they should be "bestest buds", but I definetly feel that the right stories between Bruce and Clark involve them respecting each other and looking out for each other's back.
I don't think they're going to be going go-karting together but I think that their respective unique situations make so that they could only have the relationship they do with each other. A friendship as Aristotle (at least I think it was Aristotle) defines it where a true friendship can only be between equals.
^20th Century Boys.
I am just talking about the way the writers cause the characters to act. They try their best to make them someone that you can... not idealize and adulate, those words are too strong, but they definitely try to make the characters act in the way that they want to inspire readers to act.
That is the reason behind Superman's "The Big Blue Boy Scout" nickname, really; he's the type of character who can actually be seen as that. In-story, he's a lot more human than that, but when you consider his character as a whole, he's an inspirational figure- or, a paragon of good.
Character-wise in story, it's a different story. So yes, we may be approaching it from two different angles.
^Hmm, that's certainly true but it's also true of a lot of other superheroes as well. I'm speaking of what separates Superman from most other Superheroes, and generally the ones that share that with him are deliberately attempting to mimic him.
[obligatory superhero pimping of your choice]
One Piece, natch.
But on a more serious note, I don't see how a series would lose its readability after a set number of volumes; in fact, I find myself wishing that the series I watch, which mostly lend themselves to one or two season story arcs, could be extended, because I'll miss them and still want to see the characters and all that.
DYRE: Simple. I grew up on long fighting shonen. Following them is never a chore to me, anyway.
/me hands Everest a big shiny collection of Cerebus The Aardvark
I meant inherently; I was going to leave that in the original post, but it sounded awkward, and I never put in a substitute. I meant that I don't know why keeping up with a series has to be a chore just because it reaches a certain length. If it declines in quality, that's another matter.
Why did you remind me David Sim exists, Juan?
The problem is that the longer a story is kept up, the more reasons it is needed for the story to keep up and going.
@Malkavian: I just want you to share my pain.
Please keep in mind that I rarely read comics, here, so I'm mostly going from memory of cartoons, Kingdom Come, ASS, and a few other issues I've read in the past year. So this may not be entirely accurate.
But from what I remember, one aspect of Superman's character is that he's aware of his status as a paragon, and yet he remains humble and does not seek glory because of it.
If he meets someone who needs help, then he helps them. I am reminded of that one picture in ASS, where Superman talks the boy down from jumping. He is aware of his reputation, and he uses it to assure the boy. He does not seek status, wealth or adulation; he is just aware that his reputation is one more tool he has at his disposal to help people with.
And it is that that makes Superman so inspirational. He is fully aware of how people view him, but he remains grounded (apart from, y'know, his flying) despite it. He does not let it go to his head, he just continues to help people- and that's why he's so adored. If he was the type of person to seek glory for it, he would not be so loved.
Most superhero runs go for far more than 20 issues, but sometimes, they are definitely worth it. I think Runaways had more than 50, and I loved each issue of it.
I don't think issue = volumes, Nova.
This always reminds me of when Lex ran for President and Superman decided to not speak up because he thought it'd be dishonest and interfering with democracy.
I think that's the only time I've honestly wished I could slap him.
Might wanna rephrase that; I have an idea, but I don't quite know what you're getting at.
I'd been meaning to play it after I finished DA 1, but honestly every time I try to play it through, something catastrophic happens to my computer, so I've kind of given up on that for now. Seriously, it's like rolling a character in that game is all four horsemen of the apocalypse for my shit.
So I'm booting it up now to give it a shot and see if it's as terribad as people make it sound.
No, three or four issues do, though. Then again, from what I remember from reading Naruto, there was more content in a single issue of Runaways than in a full volume of that.
But some longer runs can easily hit the equivalent of twenty volumes and keep on being worth it. Admittedly, this is more Malk's area of expertise.
"This always reminds me of when Lex ran for President and Superman decided to not speak up because he thought it'd be dishonest and interfering with democracy."
Well, considering the real world, he might have a point.