IJBMer Updates

Counterclock

Everytime Malk says "First world problems" I honestly wanna jam a knife in his eye-socket.

MillerCross

That's hardly a first world problem. May be second world. :P

^Well, he does live in the first world. then again, I live in the first world, and I do have some third world problems (wheee, privatized superior education)

Malkavian

It's less that I think these problems aren't serious issues and more I have a crippling self-loathing that makes me think my problems aren't serious.

Even so, fair enough. Stab away.

IanExMachina

> I finally had to move a good 600 miles back up north to my father's where I know no one (and there's barely anyone in the 18-30 age range anyhow), and there's no real job market to speak and especially not one for a college graduate.

I feel you bro, I feel you bad.

(Similar situation minus the 600 miles bit.)

MillerCross

You just would enjoy that, wouldn't you? Being stabbed by mad woman who's in love with you...

MadassAlex

I have a crippling self-loathing that makes me think my problems aren't serious.

---

Whee, fun. -_-



Also, Miyavi are awesome.

MillerCross

Is. He's just a guitar player

And yeah, count me in that crippling self loathing thing. In fact, it takes me a lot to ask people to help me when it prolly would be the easiest way out. 

Malkavian

Also, there's a pretty big part of me that fears being resented for asking for help.

Yeah, I know....

MillerCross

In other news, I think I may have failed this class. Not sure. Hopefully I'll make up for the bad grade today or something.

also, the fucker flipped the tables on me >

Malkavian

You know what? I was doing Yardwork and bank stuff from 9-3.

Then I did more resume throwing.

It's beer time.

Solstace

My issue is that I try to find conventional logic in jazz. Like, some kind of system that can codify its harmony. Blurrggghhh. 

I'm more than willing to help you with it, if you'd like.  Most of it boils down to basic theory, and outlining the chords.  Some of the best jazz is simple jazz.

Malkavian

So I'm watching MovieBob's current big picture, and for all his other flaws I really admire his ability to find social relevance and historical worth in shlock guilty pleasure works.

MadassAlex

^^ That would honestly be brilliant. Essentially, I'm looking for some basic structure when it comes to knowing which chord extensions are best to use, and where. Sevenths are a given, and ninths are good. But it gets confusing when things get a little stranger and the fluid nature of chord progressions and harmony comes into play. The human ear will accept some theoretically ridiculous things if one phrases them right, and because jazz harmonies are so complex in comparison to most popular music genres, I end up "tricking" my ears. For instance, I'll use a chord that has off-key notes, but my mind will accept it because it interprets it as a temporary key change or modal shift.

So while I can sort of randomly slam together jazz, I don't understand it.

Solstace

Alright, it'd probably be easiest for me to explain if there was something to work off of.  Any songs in particular you've been toying with?

Also, as for the "off key" notes, they tend to work best on dominant 7 chords.  The reason for this is that a dominant 7 chord is very dissonant, it has a tri-tone between the 3rd of the chord and the 7th of the chord that wants to resolve, so you can just keep stacking dissonances on it, and the eventual resolution will be that much sweeter.  You can toss on the #9, because then you have a dissonant major 7th in between the 3rd and the ninth, the b13 will create an augmented sound, etc.  This approach doesn't work for non-dominant chords.

And for the record, in my own playing, I tend not to use extensions past the 9th, except in some cases where I want to imply a modal flavor, so if I run into a chord that would imply Lydian mode, for example, like an FMaj7 in the key of C Major, I'll play a FMaj7#11, or if I run into something that implies Phrygian, like an EMin7 in the same key, I'll play an Emin7b9.

MadassAlex

Thanks for the info.

As for further explanation, just hit me with a progression. If you use the standard jazz progression, I'll know what you're on about immediately.

glennmagusharvey

Have I yet posted here praising really small houses/apartments with great uses of space?

IanExMachina

I don't think so.

Solstace

Cmaj7 | C7   | Fmaj7  | Fm7   | Em7    A7 |Dm7   G7 | Cmaj7| 

So, by looking at this progression, we can assume key of C (I'm sure I don't need to explain why).

So, the first chord I'd probably just keep as Cmaj7, to establish the tonality.

Second chord:  C7 is what's called a secondary dominant.  The goal of a secondary dominant is to create a temporary V-I sound, frequently extended to V7-I.  The target chord, the Fmaj7, is treated as a temporary tonic.  C7 is the V in the key of F Major, and so the C7 is used in the progression.

C7 is a dominant chord, which is permission to go wild, so I'd probably play C7#9, a C13, or a C+ as those are all easy chords.  I may also play an F#7 there, as it's the tritone substitution.

The Fmaj7 is the fourth degree in the key of C, so it's okay to imply Lydian with the #11, also the unaltered 9.  

The Fmin7 is borrowed chord, meaning that it's taken from C major's parallel minor.  The parallel minor is the minor scale build off of the same tonic, so, C minor.  Personally, I think that Fmaj7-Fmin7-Emin7 trick is employed for the chromatic motion, from the E to the Eb to the D, or at least, that's what makes that progression work so well.  

Anyways, as for extensions, we'd want things that are in the key of Cminor and that don't clash with the little chromatic line.  As such, the 13 doesn't work here, because the dissonance it creates is too distracting.  The unaltered 9 is still an option, and you can probably use the unaltered 11 for color, as both are in key.

Now here, the progression shifts key center slightly.... the Emin7, while still being in the key of Cmaj, actually acts as the ii in a ii-V-i in D major.  So for both the Emin7 and the A7, you want to pull extensions from the key of D major, which leave you with unaltered 9 and unaltered 11.

(Thinking about it, I don't think you'll ever use a 13 on a non-dominant chord.  It clashes too much with the 7th, which you never want to leave out of a chord.)

Alright, you would think that a ii-V-I in D would resolve to a D major chord, but this is one of those characteristic jazz things.  Since a V can resolve to any type of chord without sounding jarring (save for diminished and augmented chords), they decide to resolve it to another min7 chord, starting another ii-V-I progression.  This one's for real.  So the Dmin7 - G7 - and Cmaj7 are all in the key of C, so use extensions that fit the key of C.

Really, this is a lot of typing to say "use extensions that fit the key of area of the progression you're in, and don't use a 13 except in a dominant chord, where you can use them all you want"  >.>  (though you can also use the b13 in a minor chord that's the vi, if you leave out the 5th of the chord, because the 5th isn't necessary, and the b13 fits the key.)

While this progression used all major keys, the whole "take from the key" thing works with minor, too.

Analyzing the songs to figure out what key you're in at different parts of a progression is the hardest part of jazz.  Jazz loves to shift key centers a lot.

Another note:  If you're an avid Joe Pass listener, or listen to some other solo guitar player that does chord melodies, and you see weird extensions in the transcriptions, it's probably adding the melody note to the chord reduction.

Feel free to ask any other questions, or to ask me to clarify stuff.  This is a lot of jargon, and I'm not sure how much theory you know.

MadassAlex

I'm reasonably well-learned in theory, so I understood all of that quite neatly, although I haven't finished digesting it. You've done exactly what I wanted, though, by pointing out the logical reasoning behind using different chord extensions. Thanks very much for that. If I have any further questions, I'll fire away, but for now I'm quite happy to explore what you've just provided.

MillerCross

Ooooh, music jargon~ <3

RedEyedAbyss

I often feel guilty for doing my physics assignments out of order, but the difficulty of the questions tend to be so anachronistic.

[Deleted User]

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All Nines

Hm. Two episodes into Eden of the East, and it's fairly engaging. More so than Gankutsuou, certainly.

Steins;Gate and Serial Experiments Lain are starting to pick up, too (2 episodes into all these series, for the record).

And my Samurai Champloo complete series gets here in two days.

MillerCross

Just like any update thread is bound to be, Dovey.

Bastion

Eden of the East was one of those series that I'm not sure I liked that much, but which I nonetheless devoured.

MillerCross

I don't even know what to watch these days now that Doctor Who is over. 

Madoka? Nanoha? And why are my thoughts circulating around pseudocute magical girls

RedEyedAbyss

Full Moon wo Sagashite? (To be honest, I don't think it sounds like your type, but I like it a lot so far and you mentioned magical girls, so who knows?)

Malkavian

Everest I...

okay... just...

watch all of Gankutsuou okay?

Wicked223

Holy shit Jeff Mangum is performing at Occupy Wall Street

All Nines

"Everest I... 

okay... just...

watch all of Gankutsuou okay?"

Of course. I'm just saying it's starting really slowly.