The TVTropes Thread

ClockworkUniverse · 2012-05-12 01:54:17

Well, I generally just glance at the first couple of sentences to get an idea of what the thing is.

MillerCross · 2012-05-12 01:55:54

i tell you man, they hide in the first sentences, sometimes. staring to leap at you.

Nightwire · 2012-05-12 02:26:20

"with that said, i still read the tvt pages after finishing a series or whatever from time to time for some reason. i think it's mostly because i'm used to it from the days of yore, but i think it's simply because i find the idea of "Hey, this guy did this thing that this other guy totally did in this other show" very amusing in and of itself."

I often do that too.

FeoTakahari · 2012-05-12 04:49:03

@Juan and others: Sure, tropes aren't analysis in and of themselves, but pages aren't usually just lists of tropes, they're lists of tropes with explanations. I've seen better analysis of Ender's Game on examples pages that link to its page than in essays that were supposedly intended to analyze it, and I've seen some degree of analysis for works that (as noted in Juan's post) are deemed by most sites to not even be fit for analysis. (Of course, the most detailed analysis usually takes place in the forums--hence why I care about the forums more than I care about the wiki.)

MadassAlex · 2012-05-12 04:56:34

A trope's explanation isn't an analysis, but a very short discussion on the application of the trope. This can potentially be analytical, but usually isn't. Given, there are some very clever TV Tropes pages -- the Bible page is a good example -- but most of it is description without any depth. And there's not anything wrong with that, but it's not analysis.

I mean, if the Alien vs. Predator page had a discussion on how the franchise is an accidental case of a conflict between masculinity and femininity, or how Zelda is gaming's analogue to Arthurian mythology via the "there is no continuous plot" hypothesis and how that becomes a commentary on the nature of mythology, then there'd be a case for TV Tropes being a source of analysis. And hey, that could certainly happen and it'd be awesome, but right now it doesn't.

FeoTakahari · 2012-05-12 05:32:17

I really don't know what to say at this point. I thought I'd seen great analysis on TV Tropes, but I can't think of any specific page to support that, and certainly none of it was anything like what Madass Alex just referenced. Maybe I only saw it in the forums? (I don't typically distinguish between the forums and the wiki.)

All Nines · 2012-05-12 05:45:46

I'd assume the forums were better for this sort of thing. It's been too long since I've been there for me to make a truly insightful comment (which is ultimately fine, because it kinda messed me up, being there), but for all I know, people have a clear idea of how to go about posting tropes to a wiki page; they might see all the tropes listed and get the idea from the site's mission statement that observation = analysis. On the forums, people aren't restricted to discussing the work strictly through opening summary and trope lists, so you're more likely to get actual analysis. Not that there aren't tropes that, when observed, lend themselves to meaningful critical analysis. But there are too many that plainly don't, and if the wiki doesn't provide, then it's as much the fault of tradition and misinformation, if not more so, than the fault of these so-called tropes themselves (I say so-called because there are few TVTropes that actually count as tropes).

This is mostly a guess, though.

glennmagusharvey · 2012-05-12 06:40:49

TV Tropes isn't an analysis site itself, but it's very much an analysis-enabling site.

So while it doesn't contain a high concentration of analysis on its own, it's highly useful for those of us like feotakahari and myself who are interested in analysis.

Naas_Human · 2012-05-12 06:48:54

Yeah, trope lists aren't really analyses all that much.

MillerCross · 2012-05-12 10:55:00

Sure, tropes aren't analysis in and of themselves, but pages aren't usually just lists of tropes, they're lists of tropes with explanations. I've seen better analysis of Ender's Game on examples pages that link to its page than in essays that were supposedly intended to analyze it, and I've seen some degree of analysis for works that (as noted in Juan's post) are deemed by most sites to not even be fit for analysis. (Of course, the most detailed analysis usually takes place in the forums--hence why I care about the forums more than I care about the wiki.)

This raises many questions, such as:

1) how is it a better analysis?

2) How come a work is not worthy of analysis? It's simply a ridiculous concept in academical analysis to claim that a work is not worthy of analysis. Sure, some works are deliberately made with the idea of being dissected and studied, but that doesn't actually make them more worthy of analysis. Look, I'll say this once and I'll say it again, almost the whole of Shakespeare work (You know, the basis of the English literature canon) were works with nothing in mind but harmless fun, but they've been dissected and studied by many an academic simply because they are artistic works. If a site claims that a work is not worthy of analysis, study and so on, then that site better have a damn argument to back up that claim.

3) Having been to the forums, much of the analysis I've seen on media has always been based around some, uh, bothersome rhetoric, especially related to sexuality and works.

Look, man, were it for me, TvT would totally have these things and the analysis tab would be somewhat used. But as it is today? editors sincerely believe that analysis is inherently dull, boring and just for stuffy academics. And I get that they don't want that, but analysing and positing a theory about an artistic work in an informal environment doesn't mean they have to do it in the same way that academics do. They don't have to cite sources, for starters. It's just ludicrous to pretend that analysis is just shaped in one specific form.

Flyboy · 2012-05-12 11:48:29

I somehow doubt that, assuming the TvTropes forums imploded/were annihilated by Fast Eddie, that this site would get that massive of an influx of new users. The general stance of many TvTropes users towards this site seems to vary from vague distrust (among older users who know what this is and what its origins are) to total ignorance (among newer users who don't have a clue).

And making an automatic rejection system seems rather lazy and spiteful, though I see that that doesn't seem to be a serious suggestion.

Also, lol at:

TV Tropes is the first place I've found for such people--and not only that, the wiki actually trains people in critical analysis, albeit a less formal (and less boring) form of analysis than what's taught in schools.

It's "less formal and less boring" because it's not analysis at all, it's long pages of wankery about "things that happened in X work of fiction that is usually an anime or video game, or a summer action film if you're lucky," not actual literary analysis in any meaningful sense.

ClockworkUniverse · 2012-05-12 11:57:30

And making an automatic rejection system seems rather lazy and spiteful, though I see that that doesn't seem to be a serious suggestion.

We do already have one; the words on it are stuff like "viagra," "pills," "discount," etc.

MillerCross · 2012-05-12 11:58:01

Man, we get banned users all the time. Trust me, we'd get an influx. Not every single user or anything like that, but I feel that we'd get a lot of people that we wouldn't be interested in getting. Not to mention that there are also a lot of registered users from there who simply don't post and who probably will if the forums get shut down.

vandro · 2012-05-12 12:00:18

The character page of evangelion holds more analysis in its descriptions of the characters than the analysis of other media, though.

MadassAlex · 2012-05-12 12:03:16

^^ I don't think being uninteresting in hosting people we personally dislike is a warrant for pre-emptive rejections. I'd be in favour of giving them an opportunity to prove themselves. Plus, some perfectly good people could include TVT in their application notices and get barred from entry when they might have been great additions to the community.

MillerCross · 2012-05-12 12:05:30

I figure the best we could do is admitt them and keeping them on a tight leash. *shrug*

All Nines · 2012-05-12 12:26:39

You people are taking my auto-rejection joke-that-was-admittedly-not-phrased-too-jokingly-at-first-so-I-apologize-for-that too seriously. Keep in mind my stance on TVTropes. :P

I only said "I wouldn't be against [it]", which assumes that people would actually be in favor of it.

Stormtroper · 2012-05-12 13:01:44

^ I kinda thought it was a joke at first, but when others started talking about the technical aspects of it...

MillerCross · 2012-05-12 13:10:22

I figured it was a joke, but I still think it's a situation worth considering, especially considering the fact that a lot of us are trying our damnest to both make this place non-tvtropes related and for this place to grow without it becoming too much of a hassle.

vandro · 2012-05-12 13:16:23

We can't really grow without influx. And being honest, what kind of influx do we have if we are just a run-of-the-mill general discussion board?

Flyboy · 2012-05-12 13:27:35

The idea of this place as non-TvTropes related is laughable given its origins, Juan. You should know that.

MillerCross · 2012-05-12 13:30:33

You should know by now that not everything needs to be tied to its origins. Especially you of all people.

Flyboy · 2012-05-12 13:37:57

It doesn't need to be, but it will be. Practically everyone here is from TvTropes, the new people all come from there, and the site itself comes from there. You'd have to literally start from scratch to shift that kind of fundamental association.

MillerCross · 2012-05-12 13:44:38

We can't really grow without influx. And being honest, what kind of influx do we have if we are just a run-of-the-mill general discussion board?

I'm not denying that. What I'm saying is simply that in the event that we get a massive influx of users because TvT becomes permanently unavailable for those who want a more general topic-based forum, then all we could do is be very careful about how we treat these hypothetical individuals. I also figure that if we know them previously to be individuals we do not wish to be here, keeping them on a short leash wouldn't be wrong either.

It doesn't need to be, but it will be. Practically everyone here is from TvTropes, the new people all come from there, and the site itself comes from there. You'd have to literally start from scratch to shift that kind of fundamental association.

In a long enough timeline charting the relationship between two objects, if the objects remain far away, their similarities and relationship as a whole diminishes.

Yes, the fact is, as most as I wish for this place to not be related in any way at all to TvT, it simply won't happen that easily, and if it will, it'll be in a long (internet) time. I'm muchly aware of that. I don't see how that makes my claim that we're trying to do so any less valid or our endeavor to make it so any less worthless.

All Nines · 2012-05-12 13:51:09

Even if it's too soon for us to completely shake our origins (we sadly have yet to come close to that), we can at least deemphasize them and make it clear that we're not a second TVTropes, for the time being. Although I seriously wouldn't be opposed to rejecting known problem users outright (not any old "I was banned for disagreeing with Eddie", but more Dravens and Shichibukais - people who were banned for vocalizing universally terrible opinions).

Flyboy · 2012-05-12 15:27:00

Yes, the fact is, as most as I wish for this place to not be related in any way at all to TvT, it simply won't happen that easily, and if it will, it'll be in a long (internet) time. I'm muchly aware of that. I don't see how that makes my claim that we're trying to do so any less valid or our endeavor to make it so any less worthless.

Even if it's too soon for us to completely shake our origins (we sadly have yet to come close to that), we can at least deemphasize them and make it clear that we're not a second TVTropes, for the time being.

If I may, I must say, this zealous "we must not have any connection to TvTropes at all" to be rather nonsensical.

You, especially, Everest, make it seem like every third thread is on TvTropes, when in the time I've been here I haven't seen that many at all, really. This isn't exactly a super busy site, granted, but most of the conversations seem to be about other, non-TvTropes things. The intense animosity towards TvTropes seems, to me, to be frankly rather melodramatic. "Oh ma gawrsh, we have like a thread a month on TvTropes, we must start rejecting any membership apps that even mention that place!" Really?

I mean, I'm not terribly fond of TvTropes overall anymore either, I grant you. The wiki these days is boring, banal, and poorly written, and most of the forum isn't terribly compelling. But it's not like it has that much effect on this site directly, or that the only discussion here is about TvTropes.

I just don't get it, really.

Edit: Hell, in hindsight, I'd say the best course of action would just be to have a "one TvTropes thread only" rule and funnel all the potential problems that way.

MadassAlex · 2012-05-12 15:48:02

You weren't here when this place was a lot more interesting in the sense that a falling bomb is interesting.

Waltzy · 2012-05-12 15:55:59

wow those are some really shitty looking badges

Malkavian · 2012-05-12 15:57:24

^^Aye. Those were the days.

Flyboy · 2012-05-12 16:00:04

You weren't here when this place was a lot more interesting in the sense that a falling bomb is interesting.

...I don't follow.

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