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Comments
You know, there's one scene in the game I find quite memorable.
It was the first time I went to Windhelm. I walked into the gates, and the first thing I encountered was two Nord men harassing a Dark Elf. They accused her of being a spy and harassed her for a while before walking off, threatening her.
I spoke to her, trying to find out what was going on. She told me about how it's normal for Dark Elves; they're used to living under the oppression like that.
^There is one dude in all of Windhelm who thinks that the oppression of the Dark Elves, Khajiit, and Argonians is wrong.
He becomes Jarl if you side with the Empire.
what is his name
tell me so i can side with him ;-;
"DO YOU THINK HE COULD BE THE PRINCE OF A FOREIGN LAND?" "I HOPE SO, KILL HIM ANYWAY. THIS'LL LOOK GOOD ON MY RESUME FOR IMPERIAL ASSHOLE COLLEGE."
*cough* That aside, once I learned you could side with the Stormcloaks in the beginning (didn't realize I could follow anyone but the Imperials until a friend told me), I've always gone with Stormcloaks, at least for the beginning, for the chance to kill the general that orders your death, and then at least that score is settled.
I don't like though, how even though the Imperial guy didn't want you to be executed, no real effort was made to save you (until you know, the dragon attack). It gives the impression that the Imperials are really just cogs in a wheel that will do whatever who's in charge tells them too, and so you know straight off that in the wrong hands the Imperials are deadly sheeple. To contrast, one prisoner made a run for it (although it's dubious whether he was actually a Stormcloak ["I'm not a rebel!"]), and the other interrupted the priest with an obvious dig at them ("In the name of Talos, get on with it") and went out a badass with his beliefs above all.
Although the Stormcloaks operating on belief could be scary if they got dubiously moral ones, as it stands they're just fighting for freedom from the empire because they've had enough of being pushed around and refuse to become a slave to one entity. They act according to their beliefs and their worship of Talos and their devotion to their families, and those are the kinds of people I can stand with, not those that will knowingly do bad and bend rules when convenient. Even if the Stormcloaks have no chance against the Thalmor, at least they didn't go down eating out of their hands.
Ahhhh that racist jerk from Windhelm.
Yeah when I got into a fistfight with him and knocked him down I didn't stop hitting.
See, if they were really trying to portray the sides as complex and equally wrong (which I think is a flawed strategy as opposed to presenting both as equally human rather than equally terrible) then the choice at the very beginning is rather silly. Why not have you escape on your own and then let you decide for yourself after interacting with the society.
I mean I sided with the rebels but I'm still really confused as to why the Imperial would want to save you, let alone why I should trust him.
Honestly, I think the 'being carted off to be executed' gives the wrong first impression of Skyrim from the very start.
^*6 And? That's exactly what I'm talking about. You can expect that sort of attitude to get worse as the Nords become more heavily disempowered. When it comes to imperialism (and colonialism), it's the privileged class and the dominated class that become most heavily racist. It's not like racism just springs out of nowhere, and if you look at history, it's far from a normal state of affairs. Racism as well know it (and as it appears in the game) is colonialist racism.
Basically, if the Imperials never pulled their encroaching-on-Skyrim shenanigans, the underclasses wouldn't be mistreated in the first place. Just like how if far Western Europe didn't do its naval colonialism thing, racism would be a matter that Europeans would be largely uninvolved in and unconcerned with. In fact, Europe has a pretty staggering lack of racism (with a few exceptions, but all to do with conquest) until the rise foreign slave trade and colonialism.
huh, i actually forgot he tried to save me before the dragon attack too
Then again, the only bit I remember about me being executed unlawfully was "She's not on the list!" "It doesn't matter, throw her in anyway!" which makes sense to me because, you know, I'm in a carriage with all these Stormcloak rebels and there's every chance I was captured with them and the scribe just probably forgot to put my name on the list.
And, this was happening before the Imperials came in. That's what I'm getting at.
How long have the Imperials been encroaching on Nord territory by then? 'Cause like I said, racism is not generally a thing outside of armed conflict (or outside the results of armed conflict), and it's not a particularly common historical thing compared to how far-reaching it is today.
^^And like the guy kinda sorta apologizes to you and promises to send your remains home, so it's not like he's heartless, just powerless. It's kinda sad when people join a faction to do the right thing and the faction forces them to do wrong.
>Then again, the only bit I remember about me being executed unlawfully was "She's not on the list!" "It doesn't matter, throw her in anyway!" which makes sense to me because, you know, I'm in a carriage with all these Stormcloak rebels and there's every chance I was captured with them and the scribe just probably forgot to put my name on the list.
>Endorsement of overlooking any form of due process for convenience's sake.
Yes, because I am endorsing it and not just saying I can see where they're coming from. Yes.
I have no idea. It doesn't say as far as I'm aware.
^^^Never. Skyrim was one of the founding nations of the Empire. The racism against elves was around since the time of Ysgramor when the Nords were out conquering Skyrim, thousands of years before the Empire.
^^ Alright, so we can assume this push into Skyrim didn't just happen over the weekend. It's probably been going on for years, which is plenty of time for the Nords as a whole to become paranoid and frightened as they lose ground against a coercive force that has no right to be there.
^ Or that. Well, there's a waste of a good imperialism plot with moral ambiguity.
... Huh.
That just makes me feel less and less good about freeing that Stormcloak guy
>Yes, because I am endorsing it and not just saying I can see where they're coming from. Yes.
So you think it's completely understandable to go 'Kill him anyway.' when his name isn't on the list instead of going. 'whoah hold on there. Let's wait and confirm he needs to be executed. We can always kill him tomorrow.'
There's no defense.
What's the defence for the guy/s the Stormcloaks murdered, then?
As it's really vague, it could be self-defense, crime of passion, or murdering the man who raped his sister or something. While none are good things at least it wasn't 'kill him anyways so I have less paperwork.'
Actually, the Stormcloaks you're with didn't murder anyone. Well, Ulfric did, some time ago, but the other guy was just trying to pass the border. You weren't involved in any kind of heinous murder plot at all -- just in the wrong place at the wrong time. The not-Ulfric guy implies later on that he hadn't even killed anyone until well after his escape when the dragon attacked, and the people he's killed are Imperial soldiers in straight-up combat.
There is a lot more than one Stormcloak there. Did they go around and happen to find three men who killed the men who raped their sisters then, did they?
I think things might've been taken slower if Ulfric wasn't there...not defending it of course but sadly that's probably why; they just wanted to execute him and make a big show of making him watch his supporters die first.
On a note regarding Imperial procedure, I'd like to be able to defend them and that "kill em anyway" thing at the beginning as just because of the extraordinary circumstance of Ulfric being there, but the first time visiting the Imperial fort confirms that this is common procedure for them. One of the first things you hear General Tullius telling his subordinate is to send a letter and he explicitly tells her to not be afraid to "embellish" and stretch the truth a bit to get what they need. Ulfric's methods are at least more direct and in the beginning at least were focused on gaining the true respect/recognition of his followers.
The whole "fuck due process" thing was pretty much that one Captain's idea. Though that hardly makes a difference since General Fucking Tullius was there and didn't do a thing.
^I heard that argument too. Considering they were supposed to bring Ulfric to the capital, it's pretty safe to say it was a rush job.
That's not what they said to me on the carriage >
^^^^You're missing my point. Their crimes wasn't good by any stretch of the imagination but 'let's kill this dude because it saves me time' is definitely worse.
I'm with Waltzy. I'll take the honest villain who believes they're doing the right thing over the one who knows they're not.
^^ Then you should do the carriage scene again. Only Ulfric is guilty of murder there, and his Stormcloak buddy only happened to be with him. Later on, during Stormcloak quests, the not-Ulfric guy shows up. At one point he starts dialogue with you and says, "They say... they say the killing gets easier. I don't know if I hope they're right". This guy isn't a murderer -- he's a villager fighting for what he believes is right.
That was what I was trying to imply. There is also the fact that anyone left alive after Ulfric died could escape and martyr him, which leads to a whooole lot of trouble that could be avoided.
There is also the fact I was preparing to jump up and bash their heads in
no really i was
In the end, I can't say I can.
I don't know; I have trouble hearing what people are saying in the game unless I pretty much rest my chin on my laptop and press my ear against the speakers.
However, they have Ulfric Stormcloak there; the guy who killed their king. Then they have all these other guys who did this stuff I couldn't hear, but I distinctly heard "Killed people" and "stole bread". Then they have me, who is actually kind of a blank slate- I don't know why I'm there, and neither do they.
They go to execute everyone who was there. These guys are killed, and Ulfric has to watch, which is kind of a dick move but he did kill their king. Then it comes to me, and they don't have me on the list. There's a variety of reasons this could be, but in the end, the Captain decides not to risk it and have me executed anyway. The soldier with me doesn't particularly want me to die, but he promises to respect me after I'm dead.
Then a dragon attacks and blah everyone is dead.
At this point, I have two choices- side with the people who were going to execute me for flimsy reasons, or side with these people who I am (was?) pretty sure committed murders and were being executed for it.
Both sides are in the wrong here. One side is aware of it, and one side isn't really facing it. But one side also has the goal of keeping peace in the nation (and oppress the Nords), while one side wants to plunge it into civil war (and oppress the Dark Elves and Argonians).
Then, pretty soon after (this didn't factor into my initial decision), I find a book called Scourge of the Grey Quarter, in which it mentions the oppression of Dark Elves and Argonians and then mentions that someone called "Jarl Ulfric" is "not nearly so tolerant of these substandard beings as his fathers were".
In the end, I'll take the side of the people who do want peace in the kingdom, oppress one race and free two other races from oppression than the people who want to throw the country into civil war, oppress two races and free another race from oppression.
Hmm, on the whole killing of the king thing, I'm gonna side with the "bested in honorable combat" story personally.
Why? Mainly the claim that he "shouted the king apart". It stands out to me as an obvious embellishment when YOU ARE THE DAMN DRAGONBORN and even with Fus Ro Dah at its strongest you can't shout your enemies apart.
Although the "honorable" part is also dubious because from what I understand you're not supposed to use the Voice/Thu'um unless you need it, and Ulfric wouldn't have needed it against the king.
I don't think I've heard that story myself.
I've heard two stories; a generic "Ulfric Stormcloak killed the king" and "Ulfric Stormcloak shouted the king to pieces". All I can tell is that Ulfric used his Voice and then killed the King, which, based on the inscriptions I read on the stones on the path to High Hrothgar, is a big nono.
Also, did I mention that I was attacked by Stormcloaks during my escape? Yeah, that might also be part of why I like the Imperials more.
I don't think the Imperials particularly care about peacekeeping, as their war is a power bid in the twilight of their Empire. Furthermore, there's no guarantee they'll free anyone from oppression. If anything, the disempowerment of the Nords will lead to more significant violence against Dark Elves and Argonians.