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Comments
At the point at which you choose, there's no ambiguity whatsoever. I've got two characters and went with the Stormcloak both times. I intended to go with the Imperial for my second character, but given the circumstances, it just didn't feel right. And the morally ambiguous part of the Stormcloaks hadn't entered the equation yet.
You have a choice between a guy who was about to get executed alongside you or a henchman for the side that was going to execute you with no lawful authority to do so. For the sake of convenience.
Because the other side is just as oppressive and bloodthirsty?
From all accounts in this thread and other discussions I've had who you choose makes no real difference which not only makes it a stupid choice but a false one.
^Yeah, but one oppressive bloodthirsty side didn't want to cut my head off.
We don't know a thing about either side at this point, apart from one was going to execute you without cause and the other was willing to help you escape.
It's really weird, because at that point the only thing defining the character is that the Imperials jailed him and are going to kill him. So it's really weird to be pro-imperial.
There's also the fact that the Stormcloak option takes you to an idyllic village with happy bunnies and stuff. So I was all, "this is what the Stormcloaks value, huh? Seems like good times to me" and off I went.
I will give you that on first impressions it's pretty one sideed in favor of the Stormcloaks, but I'd argue that it's deliberate on Bethesda's part, showing you the better part of the Stormcloaks and the worst of the Empire first then turning the tables when you actually get to know Ulfric's position.
I'd wager that they left the option of not being stuck with one side or the other so the player can opt not to side with essentially the Nord KKK (I'm not kidding about that, Ulfric's rhetoric sounds like something from Stormfront), even if they saved your life.
^Both sides take you to the same place.
Being deliberate doesn't make any less of a false choice. I don't see why an option to defect from the stormcloaks later on is off the table, and from what I've seen the group you go with it doesn't really matter anyways.
In fact, I think that actually sounds like a more compelling main story than 'need to kill a dragon'. 'Hey the Imperials tried to kill me! The rebels are against that! I'm so down with that. Holy shit they're actually terrible people! I guess I'll blaze my own path without either."
Actually, what I liked about the Stormcloaks is that Ulfric has a really fucking sexy voice questions himself on a regular basis. It's his second in command that prevents that. He's kind of running the show with genuine loyalty towards Ulfric, but allowing him to follow a path of hatred via his blind devotion.
In short, Ulfric has a devil on his shoulder with nothing to temper its influence. It's a pretty cool thing watching that unfold.
You know, it's funny. I actually followed the Imperials.
You wanna know why?
The Imperials put me headfirst on a chopping block, yes. But at the first sign of danger, when the dragon attacked and started killing everybody, the guy's first reaction wasn't let's push the prisoner who was about to be executed into the dragon's way so we might survive a bit longer. No, his first reaction was "HOLY SHIT A DRAGON ATTACK". Then his next reaction was "Welp, come on, you'll be safe with me."
Say what you will about them, but not all the Imperials are fuckwads. I'm a Nord, but he didn't instinctively throw me out; he helped me, and in return I helped him get back to his family.
Also, he helped me kill a bear.
Also, he helped me kill a bear.
What more needed to be said. What. More. XD
^^I don't see how that changes anything. I don't see why it's reasonable to side with the people who were just about to kill you just because they fought the dragon instead of running. Even if you're not too keen on the rebels there's no logical reason to do anything when your executors are distracted than TO GET THE FUCK AWAY FROM THEM.
Sure there is.
This rebel guy is about to be executed for murder.
At worst that means he might try to murder me which is still better odds than the people I know just tried to.
And the Imperials are letting you share in that crime for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Murder is kind of honest compared to abusing the law to execute someone because it's convenient, which is pretty much murder with a side-order of authoritarian abuse.
> go with guy who tried to execute me, but is now trying to save me
> go with guy who is being executed for murder and is running away
You know, somehow I don't think either choice is really any more sensible than the other.
> murder is better than abusing the law
alex
reread what you just wrote
Why not. One side tried to kill you. The other didn't. The answer is obvious. Dude might have killed someone (probably an Imperial soldier) but he didn't kill me.
^Abusing the law to commit mass murder.
Also the whole 'saving' thing is kind of sketchy to me. I know it doesn't play out that way in the game, but honestly speaking it's reasonable to suspect going with the Imperial means going back to a dungeon cell and still probably a chopping block.
And that makes it okay then!
> guy also tried to start a civil war but that's ok because these other dudes tried to execute you
>And that makes it okay then!
Yep. Both of them are killers. Between the two I take the one where his kill list doesn't include me.
> guy also tried to start a civil war but that's ok because these other dudes tried to execute you
Yeah, how dare someone start an insurrection against a regime that executes people out of convenience.
No, what I said is that murder is better than using lawful authority to murder. You can trust a murderer not to kill you, given most murders are not sociopathic but either acts of passion or essentially domestic assassinations. But a lawful body that murders when it's convenient can't be trusted with anything, because their reason will always be power and the sacrifice of whoever steps in the way of that. Murder is horrible in all its forms, but not all killings are equal in their failures of compassion.
Also, the guy that helps you out didn't murder anyone.
This argument has really lost me when an appeal to morality has been made, especially since the opening has you about to executed for a crime that you weren't involved with but the Imperials just want to be really thorough.
Yep. Both of them are killers. Between the two I take the one where his kill list doesn't include me.
Whereas honestly? I'd go with the side who's trying to save me.
Neither side is as good or bad as you're trying to call it. Yes, the Imperials caught me up in an execution (of Stormcloaks, in which I'm pretty sure I was involved but I dunno because blank slate history). However, I can't say that the guy they're executing deserves to live anyway.
Yes, the Imperials are an oppressive regime who oppress the oppressed. But at the same time, the Stormcloaks are literally rebels who are causing a civil war. People get caught up in civil wars who aren't involved, all the time. And that's not to mention all the people who could be waiting on the sidelines to swoop in because you're killing off everybody who can fight, dude.
At the beginning of the game, I'm faced with two choices. On one side, there are the soldiers who tried to execute me unlawfully. On the other side, there are a bunch of murderers who tried to instigate a civil war. When the dragon attacks, I can choose; I can either go with the unlawful executors, or the murderers.
Yes, one group tried to kill me. However, that self-same group is also now trying to save me from said dragon.
So, that's my stance on it. I'll stand with the people who both tried to execute me and tried to save me over the group who committed murder and tried to instigate a civil war.
That's my stance.
The other side is a group of people who would instigate civil war to topple these people.
Neither side can be trusted with anything.
At this point, the ones I'm siding with whoever can oust the Thalmor better.
From what I see, that's the Empire.
>Whereas honestly? I'd go with the side who's trying to save me.
"save". What reason did I have to believe I wasn't going back to a jail cell, other than meta-game nonsense? At least with the rebels I know I'm free.
>However, I can't say that the guy they're executing deserves to live anyway.
Charming.
>Yes, the Imperials are an oppressive regime who oppress the oppressed. But at the same time, the Stormcloaks are literally rebels who are causing a civil war.
Oh no, they want to topple an evil regime. How terrible. How evil of them. I suppose they just should have occupied the town hall like those wall Street people and that certainly wouldn't have led to to more executions. I guess Luke Skywalker was evil too.
I don't care how you rationalize it there's no logical reason to go for the Imperials and there sure as hell isn't a moral reason.
Actually, I totally support the civil war. The Empire is in its twilight and shoved its way into Skyrim by force, and intends to take it over for their own expansion and benefit. The Stormcloaks aren't shining bastions of morality, but what they want is to recover the lands that should by all accounts belong to them. I'd side with anti-imperialist fighters any day of the week. Especially since the one major flaw of the Stormcloaks -- their racism -- is a reaction to the taking of their lands. Not to say it's justified, but that's the kind of social wound imperialism causes.
By defeating the Empire, one can give the Nords back their own land and set the scene for social reform where the natives feel secure enough that they don't have to lash out at immigrants. It would be generations in the making, but it would eventually happen. With the Empire, on the other hand, the sentiment would continue to fester as the Nords become continuously dispossessed of authority over their own lands.
The real Romans faced a lot of rebellions due to their authoritarian imperialism. No-one's happy to be conquered and to have their leaders replaced with foreign catspaws.
>I don't care how you rationalize it there's no logical reason to go for the Imperials
I just gave one.
>Especially since the one major flaw of the Stormcloaks -- their racism -- is a reaction to the taking of their lands.
1. None of their lands were taken, they took Skyrim from the elves initially.
2. Nordic Skyrim was never conquered, it was one of the original provinces of the Empire. Tiber Septim was a Nord who united High Rock, Cyrodiil, and Skyrim into the Empire initially.
No you didn't. Not from the perspective of the beginning of the game we're talking about.
Quite honestly, I don't see how anything whatsoever trumps 'tried to cut your head off.' I rather like my head. I use it sometimes.
Just looking at history (and given how historically inspired this instalment of TES is...):
> Roman Empire crushed under its own weight; some bits shanghaied by Celts and Germanics
> Pretty much every Germanic kingdom of the Middle Ages still exists today as a modern nation
> Some of the Celtic ones, too
And given that Skyrim is essentially the Central European Germano-Italic conflicts of the late Classical/early medieval period shivvied up to Scandinavia, I think the result of this should be reasonably clear.
Also
> implying you can defeat Vikings with magic
>No you didn't. Not from the perspective of the beginning of the game we're talking about.
I know. And in terms of first impressions I already said I agree with you.
^No, no it isn't clear. The Middle Ages didn't have a facist nation of elves instigating both sides so they can mop up whoever is left.