I like shojo anime

glennmagusharvey

> If you think it's the best, you like it better than anything else, ergo, it is your favorite. There's no other way to put it

Uh, no.

Best is a judgement of quality.  Favorite is a statement of preference.

For example: Kiddy Grade is one of my favorite animé series.  It is, however, very far from the best animé series, even among what I've seen.

Chagen

Except it's impossible to judge any type of fiction objectivelly, given that fiction lies entirely on subjective interpretation

MillerCross

Of course, some people tend to have preference for quality. As in, they prefer qualities that tend to be lumped in with quality. 

glennmagusharvey

^^ Actually, that's what I used to think.

Then I realized something one day: Just because I can't judge something objectively doesn't mean that it can't be judged at all.

If you think about it, you'll noticed that some series get much more mention than others.  Discounting new series that everyone's hyping, there are some old series that get much more attention than others.  Among them are series that people generally regard as really good.  Series don't typically get universal recognition as high-quality, but consensus is something that definitely tends to exist.

Forzare

^^^ Look me in the eyes and tell me that anyone could think that MMPR is an objectively quality show.

It's kind of objectively shit, but it's really fun to watch. It's one of my favorites, but not one of the best.

MillerCross

Except it's impossible to judge any type of fiction objectivelly, given that fiction lies entirely on subjective interpretation

Not. This. Shit. Again.

Let's put it simply. There are qualities that can be attributed when it comes to measuring a show's quality. Consistent characterization, well written plot, (For comics and animation) good art that represents the actions in a correct fashion and (in the case of animation) is fluid enough for me to feel like the movement's not forced. (For film) well done photography that actually portrays the intended action on screen as well as fluid editing that doesn't make me notice there is editing beyond the jump to another scene, etc etc.

This characteristics helps us measure if a work is indeed good and possesses quality. 

However, stuff like "It has cowboys" or "It is film noir" does not define quality. Or, in your case "It's complicated." or "IT'S THE BEST FUCKING THING EVER"

If you think Negima is a legitemately great manga, you need better arguments than "It's my favorite."

Vivi

I think NGE is one of the best anime ever. But I don't really like it.

I think Homestuck is one of the best web series. But I HATE it.

glennmagusharvey

@Forzare: I wouldn't say it's shit; it's pretty mediocre.  There's really not much of any surprise in any way--the general point of plot events can practically be predicted to an accuracy of +/- 2 minutes or so once you know the series.  That said, the acting isn't all that bad for the supporting cast and the main protagonists; it's just the villains who act rather stupidly.

Chagen

"I think NGE is one of the best anime ever. But I don't really like it.

I think Homestuck is one of the best web series. But I HATE it."

.....I think you just broke my brain.

This kind of thinking is a alien to me as Cthulu is to normal people. I really cannot comprehend how you could think that way.

I'm just simple and dumb. I have such simple thought processes compared to most people

Forzare

^^ Not gonna argue that. My point was just that it's pretty seriously flawed, and obviously not one of the best ever, and yet I enjoy it so much.

And the acting is pretty bad for anyone who isn't named Bulk or Skull.

^ You like some things that you acknowledge have plot holes, yes? Momentary bad writing? Bad acting now and then?

Just because something is well executed doesn't mean you can't like it.

Just because something is poorly made doesn't mean you have to hate it. Doesn't change the fact that it's badly made.

Chagen

"If you think Negima is a legitemately great manga, you need better arguments than "It's my favorite.""

Fine.

>The story is written better than most Shōnen stories

>The female characters actually do SOMETHING instead of being useless bitches

>The magic system is highly researched and extremely detailed

>The whole series is well-researched

>The fights are more complex and interesting than "two Flying Bricks hit each other until one keels over" (Negi/Rakan fight is a good example)

>The manga knows when to be less serious and when to be serious without falling into melodrama

>The characters are generally characterized rather well (including the Female ones--most Shōnen fail in this respect)

glennmagusharvey

> This kind of thinking is a alien to me as Cthulu is to normal people. I really cannot comprehend how you could think that way.

It's okay; you're just a teenager anyway, it'll come with time.

Darn, now I sound old.

Anyway, maybe I can try explaining: there are different types of enjoyment.  Different people, at different times, value them differently.  For example, there's really carnal enjoyment like fanservice, but there's also intellectual enjoyment such as having a blast sorting through a really well-constructed detective story.  Someone might really like a fanservice-heavy work because they think the characters are really cute/sexy/hot, and be a big fan and buy a lot of its media and peripheral stuff, but at the end of the day feel that it's not the greatest thing in the world.

AHR

Late, but, JC: I should have meant the reality of entertainment.

MillerCross

>The story is written better than most Shōnen stories

Yeah, but your argument is not "Negima is a better Shonen series", your argument is "Negima is the best manga". Which means, of course, that you can't only prove that Negima is better than its shonen equivalents, but it's better than its, say, Seinen equivalents.

>The female characters actually do SOMETHING instead of being useless bitches

How so?

>The magic system is highly researched and extremely detailed

Great worldbuilding is nothing if it does not complement the story.

>The whole series is well-researched 

You could have said this instead of the above.

>The fights are more complex and interesting than "two Flying Bricks hit each other until one keels over" (Negi/Rakan fight is a good example)

How so?

>The manga knows when to be less serious and when to be serious without falling into melodrama

I'll let this pass because it's actually a good argument. 

>The characters are generally characterized rather well 

Are they consistent? Are they something beyond what the plot needs them to be?

(including the Female ones--most Shōnen fail in this respect)

I go back to my first point.

MillerCross

Late, but, JC: I should have meant the reality of entertainment.

Yeah, that's what I thought. Still sounded like an objective statement. :P

glennmagusharvey

...and this is why I rarely ever get into "this is/isn't the best series/genre/show/whatever ever" arguments.  Near-impossible to defend my points if I'm on defense; if I'm on offense it just feels like I'm nitpicking for the hell of it like a tea-partier idly finding fault with an Obama-proposed bill.

MillerCross

I tend to like defending a series' quality a little too much for my own comfort. >.>

AHR

I am fine with accepting flaws, it's when people just kinda...blanket insult that I get all over protective.

MillerCross

I can accept when a series I like has flaws. In fact, I tend to notice them immediately or at least quite quick enough for comfort, but I tend to think of said flaws as unimportant towards my enjoyment.

ClockworkUniverse

>The manga knows when to be less serious and when to be serious without falling into melodrama

I found this to result in more of a "mood whiplash" feel. One chapter will be grimdark, the next will be a lighthearted fanservice comedy.

The characters are generally characterized rather well

I don't agree. The main few were, but most of the large cast had one trait each. It was like they came pre-flanderized.

MillerCross

I found this to result in more of a "mood whiplash" feel. One chapter will be grimdark, the next will be a lighthearted fanservice comedy.

erm, how is this a bad thing, exactly, mister fan of a show that just had an horror episode and a comedy episode in sequence? :P

ClockworkUniverse

If you're talking about Higurashi, that was well-organized. The story arcs start out lighthearted and go downhill. And I prefer the VNs, in which each arc was published separately. Negima just switched genres seemingly at random.

MillerCross

no no no no no

doctor who

ClockworkUniverse

Oh. That's because Doctor Who has several writers, is meant to be episodic, and isn't in a single genre.

AHR

So Negima is more arc-based?

Crimson

>I'd rather have repetitive fights than repetitive romances.

This, or to be more general, the cliches of shojo stuff (mainly the ones it shares with romance novels) irritate me far more than the cliches of shounen.

ClockworkUniverse

^^After the first few chapters, yeah. And the first few chapters were like that because the author was contractually obligated to do a generic harem series.

DYRE

Of course, even a generic harem series is more enjoyable than a generic shounen action series... >.>

MillerCross

Ah, well, I'd argue that that still doesn't make mood whiplash good, and simply that a show that changes tones per episode  is not necessarily bad. 

The Wire, again, comes to mind. There are many episodes where the drama is kinda light whereas the comedy comes at the forefront. Buffy does it fairly often as well. The X-Files too. 

I'd say the problem is more when the change of tone actually has implications for the plot. Like, going back to Doctor Who, we see that Melody has been kidnapped and she grows up to be a skilled assassin. After the episode where we learn all this, we go from an epic adventure in Berlin to a horror episode in England without a single mention of Melody. 

ClockworkUniverse

Yeah, I'll agree that it's not necessarily a positive trait, but in an episodic series, it's to be expected.