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Lolicon: Good or bad

2

Comments

  • CounterclockCounterclock
    Belief
    Which side do you think I'm arguing for AHR?

    I mean honestly, there are some people who don't bat a single eye at the violence in games and movies, It's almost sickening...
  • AHRAHR
    Oh. OK. Go on ahead and do that.
  • DYREDYRE
    It's about people will use it and show it to children to present
    pedophilia as a completely normal thing. It's used by many people to
    promote and present it as something romantic or noble.

    It seems to me that anyone who'd be doing that with lolicon, would be doing the same thing without it, just possibly by slightly different means.  Not that "They'd be doing the same thing without it" is really a good defense of anything, but... I dunno.  Just felt like saying that I guess.

    I am somewhat concerned by the cultural implication of lolicon, namely
    the attitude men have towards such characters and how it affects their
    worldview on actual women. But that's a bigger can of worms.

    I don't think that's a lolicon thing.  Probably more of a moe thing.  There's overlap, but they aren't the same thing, and anyway it makes more sense in this case to direct your concerns to moe, which is the larger and more relevant thing.
  • MalkavianMalkavian
    edited 2011-08-01 17:23:24
    MORONS! I'VE GOT MORONS ON MY PAYROLL!
    My argument is not that lolicon manga should be banned. Frankly I think it would set a frightening precedent for banning things that are too violent/politically radical/whatever.

    What I AM saying is that 'it's not hurting anyone' doesn't hold water.

    Hell, maybe we should keep lolicon regulated! Go to your psychiatrist and  she can go 'son, you sound like you're gonna rape a ten year old. To prevent that I'm prescribing that anime those kids on Something Awful hate.'

    ^Well, if we're going to start banning things on the issue of 'body image issues' we'll have to throw the entire pop music industry out.
  • AHRAHR
    You know, I feel as if the people who would do such things, are the type to do those things with or without porn.
  • MalkavianMalkavian
    MORONS! I'VE GOT MORONS ON MY PAYROLL!
    And people who would kill people would probably try to kill people without guns. Guns still make it easier.
  • AHRAHR
    edited 2011-08-01 17:25:41
    That analogy doesn't work unless porn works as some sort of...sex lubrication thing.

    A better comparison is violent videogames.
  • ForzareForzare
    edited 2011-08-01 17:27:06
    Till shade is gone, till water is gone, into the Shadow with teeth bared, screaming defiance with the last breath, to spit in Sightblinder’s eye on the last Day.
    You put a gun to someone's head, pull the trigger, they die.

    Lolicon manga... it's just pictures.  It isn't as if you can just whip out your manga and suddenly have the ability to easily rape kids.

    And I enjoy killing people in video games.  That doesn't make me want to go out and kill people in real life.
  • MalkavianMalkavian
    edited 2011-08-01 17:37:06
    MORONS! I'VE GOT MORONS ON MY PAYROLL!
    ^^Oh, you're talking about the psychiatrist thing. I thought we were still on child sex coercion.

    Yeah, the psychiatrist thing was me being facetious.

    ^Pictures that can be shown to a child to encourage her to do terrible things and scar her psychologically for life. Pictures that many people use to champion reprehensible things.

    Once again, I am very much not in favor of banning things but ideas, words, and pictures have very real weight to them.
  • AHRAHR
    edited 2011-08-01 17:35:48
    Malk: Definitely. Which is why porn is usually restricted to 18+

    And I am in full support of that.

    I mean, sure, most people find them around the age they want to find them (I mean, I just turned 18 yesterday), but it's a good starting place.
  • VorpyVorpy
    ☭Unstoppable Sex Goddess☭
    In my opinion...

    DYRE is one of the most subtle and friendly lolicon I have ever seen. He doesn't apologize or justify pedoantics, he doesn't give off a persecution complex, he is aware that other people don't find it comfortable and only loli derails for fun, as opposed to trolling, and alongside evilneko they are very friendly and non-confrontational.

    This is why, when we talk about lolicon we should remember any blanket statements applied to them also apply to him, and we should be careful.
  • MalkavianMalkavian
    MORONS! I'VE GOT MORONS ON MY PAYROLL!
    ^This is a good thing to keep in mind. I'm rather fond of DYRE, though I don't know Evilneko that well, but he doesn't seem a bad sort. My issues don't really stem from people who use them as alternate porn outlets, just from the fucked up individuals (much like any horrible group, most likely a minority) that use these for reprehensible acts or to justify them.

    I also just want people to understand that this is a complicated issue.
  • ForzareForzare
    edited 2011-08-01 17:52:13
    Till shade is gone, till water is gone, into the Shadow with teeth bared, screaming defiance with the last breath, to spit in Sightblinder’s eye on the last Day.
    People have used Catcher in the Rye to justify murder, but the vast majority of people aren't fucked up enough to be affected like that when they read it.  Same goes for lolicon.  I'm not sure that that's a great reason to ban something.
  • CounterclockCounterclock
    Belief
    @Malk. So your issue isn't with Lolicon itself, but with horrible people?
  • MillerCrossMillerCross
    You can change. You can.
    Malk has stated a million times already that he doesn't approve of a ban, and I concur. I think that above all, such material should be monitorized and regulated, rather than banned.
  • ForzareForzare
    Till shade is gone, till water is gone, into the Shadow with teeth bared, screaming defiance with the last breath, to spit in Sightblinder’s eye on the last Day.
    Brainfart when I typed that.  I mean, you could say that a lot of things could influence already fucked up people to do bad things.  But we don't regulate violent movies or games because of that.
  • MillerCrossMillerCross
    You can change. You can.
    We do regulate violent games and movies. We pass them through a board, which brands the material as such in order to warn responsible adults about the contents in question and whether they should allow their kids to play or watch.
  • ForzareForzare
    Till shade is gone, till water is gone, into the Shadow with teeth bared, screaming defiance with the last breath, to spit in Sightblinder’s eye on the last Day.
    But it's porn.  Everyone knows not to let kids see porn.  If you're under eighteen, you aren't legally allowed to view porn.
  • CounterclockCounterclock
    Belief
    Actually, I think the Issue Forz has is with Malk's slipperly sloping fallacies
  • MalkavianMalkavian
    edited 2011-08-01 18:01:36
    MORONS! I'VE GOT MORONS ON MY PAYROLL!
    Counter: Yeah. See, though, my issue isn't with people who use drugs responsibly, it's with those who get so hopped up on it and addicted that they knock over convenience stores. I'm sure on some planet everyone's nice and happy and no one every uses things to be horrible. The problem is that we live on earth.

    ^^You could make a book of all the things 'everyone knows' that are violated, dude.
  • MillerCrossMillerCross
    You can change. You can.
    But it's porn. Everyone knows not to let kids see porn. If you're under eighteen, you aren't legally allowed to view porn.

    But the argument that Malk is using is, "Adults can buy such material in order to ease kid into doing sexual acts with said adults". 

    The two operative words there are important. Incredibly so. It doesn't happen all the time, and in fact, it doesn't happen that much, but it can happen, and overlooking the possibility of it happening is a mistake.
  • ForzareForzare
    edited 2011-08-01 18:04:37
    Till shade is gone, till water is gone, into the Shadow with teeth bared, screaming defiance with the last breath, to spit in Sightblinder’s eye on the last Day.

  • MillerCrossMillerCross
    edited 2011-08-01 18:05:37
    You can change. You can.

  • RedEyedAbyssRedEyedAbyss

    "Well, if we're going to start banning things on the issue of 'body image issues' we'll have to throw the entire pop music industry out."

    I did not mention body image issues.

  • MalkavianMalkavian
    MORONS! I'VE GOT MORONS ON MY PAYROLL!
    That was a joke.
  • ForzareForzare
    Till shade is gone, till water is gone, into the Shadow with teeth bared, screaming defiance with the last breath, to spit in Sightblinder’s eye on the last Day.
    "Adults can buy such material in order to ease kid into doing sexual acts with said adults"
    How often is lolicon manga used for this kind of thing, as opposed to, say, actual child porn, or just lying and convincing though?

    Also, depending on who you talk to, ultraviolent movies and radical books can incite, or assist with, already disturbed people to commit crimes like murder or robbery.  Where is the line drawn?  I don't usually like slippery slope fallacy, but setting a precedent for regulating (or banning) media based on how they could push someone who's already got mental or emotional problems into commiting crimes or helping commit crimes seems kind of dangerous.

    I might have missed where you said it, but what kind of regulation would you have in mind?
  • MillerCrossMillerCross
    You can change. You can.
    How often is lolicon manga used for this kind of thing, as opposed to, say, actual child porn, or just lying and convincing though? 

    Well, it depends on the context, doesn't it? It's not as easy as getting such a thing in, say, America when compared to Japan. 

    Anyway, I'd say that compared against CP and other methods...well, it's probably not used more.

    Also, depending on who you talk to, ultraviolent movies and radical books can incite, or assist with, already disturbed people to commit crimes like murder or robbery. 

    the difference is, that none of them can be used to coerce someone into doing despicable acts. 

    I might have missed where you said it, but what kind of regulation would you have in mind? 

    I'd say that taking care of who you sell this stuff to and maintaining a list of customers would be good.
  • VorpyVorpy
    ☭Unstoppable Sex Goddess☭
    Loli art is good, because it's like a nice net that prevents the Armoniasitium from invading our children's beds out of desperation, or feed on their own children or others. It's best of the less sane of the lolicon to hoard this kind of porn, rather than look for porn of actual children that exist out there.

    It's like the reason why the more saner cardinals in the Vatican don't try to convince other church goers from disbelieving in the word of God, mostly because the fear of hell, and the existence of a possible heaven, is the only thing keeping them from becoming hopeless wrecks that will spiral downwards into insanity without no invisible crutch to lean on or "something bigger than them" to encourage them to do good.
  • CounterclockCounterclock
    Belief
    Actually. there's been an argument in this thread that Loli stuff has been used to coerce children into having sex, can someone get up a link of when that happened?
  • evilnekoevilneko
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