Joss Whedon

AHR

STOP.

KILLING OFF.

MY FAVORITE. 

CHARACTERS.

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MadassAlex

WRITE.

MORE INTERESTING.

THINGS.

THANKS FOR RUINING THE ALIEN FRANCHISE, TOO.

Crimson

WHY.

ARE.

YOU.

SO.

POPULAR?

I DON'T GET IT!

Myrmidon

I'm still mildly confused as to why the old TvTropes ED page said that I was obsessed with him. I haven't even seen anything he did, other than Dr. Horrible.

MoeDantes

I don't think I've ever seen a single Joss Whedon thing ever.

Okay, I've seen the original Buffy movie (which I've heard his bits got removed from anyway) and I think I've seen Serenity (that was him too, wasn't it?) and didn't think either were good.

MillerCross

WRITE.

MORE INTERESTING.

THINGS.

Whedon has had his down and ups, but I'd say that "lack of interesting stuff" is hardly one of his flaws.

I've seen Serenity (that was him too, wasn't it?) and didn't think either were good.

Serenity is hardly enjoyable if you haven't watch Firefly, to be honest.

Also, he hasn't done anything good after that, to be honest.

fucking Dr Horrible. 

AHR

I thought Dr. Horrible was rather ok, if a bit color by number. 

MillerCross

It's not really awful or anything, to be honest, I just feel it receives far more credit than it deserves. 

DAT ENDING, MAN. 

MadassAlex

I think I'm suffering from Senfield Isn't Funny when it comes to Buffy and Angel. 

AHR

MA: I got the same vibes from it, but I still liked it, mostly because even though a lot of it was clichéd, it still had some quality and effort to it, which was nice.

Dunno if it was just me though.

MillerCross

Yes. Yes you are. Mostly because it's easy to see similarites between Buffy and Angel's romance to twilight. 

Well, I do. >_>

Anyway, I still recommend both of them Which means it's your obligation to check them out.

Crimson

I tried watching the first couple episodes of Buffy, didn't see what the big deal was and dropped it.

And now, thanks to Juan, I will never try to watch it again.

MadassAlex

I think it's more that since that time, the whole hunter-of-the-dark-forces thing has been done better. 

AHR

^^If you didn't see what the big deal was in the first couple of episodes, then it's probably not your thing. ^_^

That's perfectly fine.

MadassAlex

Personally, I never got why everyone is so casual about everything. I know that sometimes it's played for humour, but you'd think that the main characters would be taking some pretty hardcore martial arts lessons and investing into or making some pretty mean weaponry. 

AHR

MA:

Well, the slayer does, and there are quite a few people who have other ways of fighting demons.

MadassAlex

Most of the time they fight demons directly and physically, though. 

AHR

Mmhmm. Mostly because weaponry doesn't always work, and it's a stylistic choice. Cant'have a show with fighting in it if it's just a sniper duel, heheh.

MadassAlex

But take stakes, for instance. They're essentially a wooden equivalent of a dagger against vampires. Cheap, plentiful and easy to use. Makes sense. 

They're only good against a vampire in a vulnerable position, though. Why not extend the concept to, say, a staff? Then you could have an effective, versatile weapon with pointy stake ends. Alternatively, why not acquire UV lights and put 'em on a vehicle? 

The protagonists of Buffy and Angel don't really do much until there's a threat to react to. They kinda just wait around for something awful to happen and then solve the problem rather than using the data they have to come up with fast response templates for scenarios with common factors. 

For the kind of things they're fighting and for how much hinges on it, they're not very responsible or very forward-thinking. 

AHR

Actually, the stakes used have been shown to be able to kill a variety of things, because, well, they can stab things.

Also, it is very inaccurate that they just wait around for threats. Buffy is shown to be constantly patrolling, constantly checking up on the recently dead in sunnydale, who could possibly be vampires. A few times I remember her waiting by a grave specifically waiting for a recently deceased guy to come out all vamped, so she could stake him before he did anything.

Also, there is no canon evidence that UV lights work the same way.

As for a staff, many times a slayer is separated from a weapon, so it's common for them to use makeshift weapons with whatever wooden is lying around, so a staff might look nice, but would probably just get broken by a vampire sooner or later.

Although, Angel in his own series does have a sword.

MadassAlex

But with a broken staff, you can dual-wield stakes, hell yeah. And if you're separated from any kind of weapon, that's where the martial arts lessons can come in. Or a second concealed weapon. 

Patrolling and stuff isn't exactly the point. They don't create an infrastructure that allows them to respond to threats quickly and efficiently, nor do they develop combat jargon or comparable sign language or anything. 

AHR

Well, that's what they're already doing. Whether it's a staff or a stake, what's the difference? They both do the same thing, and the stake is probably easier to weild, and easier to conceal. It would be more flashy than anything.

Also, there technically isn't supposed to be any infrastructure at all. One slayer. That's it. No friends or allies allowed. So there are no set rules. 

Plus, they do introduce a military based operation in season 4, which pretty much does exactly what you said. Two different strategies, for two different groups.

If you don't like the type of show, that's fine, but there is a difference between people being stupid, and a different genre. Buffy and Angel are not a military show. They are a more...vigilante show.

FrodoGoofballCoTV

Alternatively, why not acquire UV lights and put 'em on a vehicle?

My understanding is that part of the BTVS setting is Fantasy Gun Control in a modern setting.  E.g., using modern weaponry to mow down fantasy creatures < training people in the equivalent of mystical martial arts to do the same.

Nova

Then you could have an effective, versatile weapon with pointy stake ends. Alternatively, why not acquire UV lights and put 'em on a vehicle? 

It's sunlight that burns them. Not UV rays.

Buffy is, primarily, a mysticist show. Sunlight burns vampires not because of UV rays, but because of the mystical elements in it.

Wooden stakes are used because it's rather hard to conceal a wooden staff.

Nova

using modern weaponry to mow down fantasy creatures < training people in the equivalent of mystical martial arts to do the same.

The Initiative did alright with their weapons.

AHR

Although, they were a funded gov't ops, so it probably wouldn't work for a casual gun mower.

Nova

A lot of the demons shown also seemed to have some resistance to modern weaponry.

Many demons are killable with regular weapons. But imagine trying to take on, say, the Beast, with military weapons. It wouldn't work.

But then, military weapons aren't useless. Look at the Judge, or the Mayor.

Ultimately, it boils down to the fact that they fight using traditional weapons because the traditional weapons work.

AHR

The Judge is from Angel right? I'm still watching it, and I don't want to think of already forgetting the buffy villains.

Nova

Nope. Second season Buffy villain. Spike and Drusilla resurrected him. Blew him up with a rocket launcher.

MadassAlex

A staff has more range, power, speed and versatility than a short, dagger-like weapon like a stake. Because both ends are equally powerful, it's very hard to defend against. With staff training and an appropriate, stakey staff, the vast majority of vampires wouldn't be a hassle. They'd drop like flies, except flies are harder to catch and spray takes a minute to kill 'em. 

It's not so much about it being military, but more about it being organised. 

Let me give you an example:

At the beginning of the year, a couple of my friends were homeless. They took some Refuge In Audacity and decided to hole up in an abandoned brewery that was protected as historically valuable. I helped 'em out, along with other friends, and it got so ridiculous that we were hauling couches up the outside wall via rope. By the time we were done, we had made the main passage and the living/sleeping area safe, furnished it and put in some sticky lights. For a couple of homeless kids, my friends weren't doing so badly. 

Except that a crew from the city wanted in. Real bad bunch, led by a former cage fighter. Long story short, I was left to care for a 15 year-old girl for a few hours while my homeless friends went on a pot run. When they came back, they weren't in a good mood at all. Apparently that crew had threatened to come around and to forcibly remove us. My friends had nowhere to go to, so there wasn't much choice -- we had to stay and defend. So what did we do? We made a trap, reinforced the main door, made weapons (my favourites were an improvised spear and an improvised flamethrower) and basically set watch throughout the night. 

The crew didn't show up, thank goodness. I think, if they did, I might've killed someone that night. 

But compare. In my experience, a few people spent a couple of hours to react to an incoming threat. In Buffy and Angel, people with more know-how and more resources spend years not really preparing or systemising things at all. When you're very tangibly fighting anyone consistently, some level of militarisation is bound to occur because you're organising and standardising responses. But somehow, the Buffy and Angel characters are happy not to actually take better measures for their extremely important jobs. Buffy has, perhaps, the excuse of school pressures, but Angel is over a hundred years old and in some pretty fair wealth. 

AHR

Actually, nope.

They're all very. very. broke.

Also, you haven't described anything that wasn't done at one point or another on Buffy. Dunno about Angel, because I'm not done with it.

For example, Season 7, Season 3 finale, the judge, as mentioned before, Buffy's constant training, Season 3 opening, when Buffy is missing from Sunnydale, not to mention the constant research being done in BOTH series, what with Willow usually finding records on the computer, and Dawn later taking up the burden later on...

Angel has the benefit of a psychic that tells them where the bad guys are. 

Cygs: Oh, yeah, I forgot his name. >.>