Arguing with birthers

MousaThe14

We know, Tnu, we know, but that's not the reality which is unfortunate but true.

glennmagusharvey

@ last post on first page: Birthers make as much sense as conspiracy theorists.

glennmagusharvey

> Hell if they're going to hate him do it right. Hate him because he wants
to increas taxes ands pending, hate him because of the new wars he's
launched, I personally don't trust him for the reason that he's a carear
pollitician.

1. No, he wants to increase taxes and decrease spending.
2. No, he only launched one new war.
3. Then you shouldn't be trusting anyone else on Capitol Hill.

> What I find really strange is that most people either love or hate Obama
because he is black, and very few people seem to be really fussed about
his policies.

I guess I count as neither, since i neither hate nor love Obama.  And I don't care much about his race; I just appreciate the fact that he's a decently good campaigner and he's got better (read: more sane) policy ideas than any remotely possible Republican presidential candidate.

Gelzo

Don't birthers count as conspiracy theorists?

At the very least, I hear there's a lot of overlap.

glennmagusharvey

Good point.

Bob

"That's exactly the reason but if I brought it up it would look like I was "Pulling the race" car, but yeah, they need a reason to be asinine bigots and the "Birth" thing is the thing they go with. Anything to justify their unreasonable bigotry. Same with all the "Muslim" proclamation.

Gee, Make Islam look bad why don't ya."

On that note, I never understood the "OBAMA IS A MUSLIM AND THEREFORE IS A BAD PERSON!" thing. First off, there was absolutely nothing that would indicate he was a muslim other than his name (which is stupid for a multitude of reasons I won't get into for both brevity and the fact that I'm lazy), and even if he were, so what? Why must people assert to others and themselves that all muslims are awful people that want nothing more than to strip America of it's freedom and bomb us all?

In the same vein, the whole birther thing just confuses me. How did this whole thing even arise, anyway?

Gelzo

I guess anyone who honestly questions it probably thinks it's fishy that a black man born outside the contiguous U.S. with an African father has U.S. citizenship.

Also ignorance + things that are different = fear.

Bastion

I know I'm a bit late, and the evidence has been presented, but I don't think the claim "The president is not a natural born citizen" really warrants a serious response. It's not quite on the level of "the Earth is flat", but it is a claim that is much more extraordinary (and hence demanding of extraordinary proof, which has not been forthcoming in the least, before refutation of it may begin) than it sounds.

Have you ever had a background check by the government? Or had a private investigator hired to look into your background? In order to become president, one must be subject to this sort of scrutiny times a thousand, along every step of the way, from initial nomination by his party to ten years after he leaves office (at which point the secret service will stop watching his every move). If you posit that everyone involved has either lied about or missed something as key as country of origin, you're not saying "Obama should leave office"--you're saying the entire apparatus of our government is fundamentally and fatally corrupt or incompetent.

You can't just say "Obama isn't a citizen, but my candidate of choice is totally trustworthy," because you will never be able to know your candidate's background as well as the government does. Even if you somehow have more dedication, effort, time and skill than the people who are paid to do this (government paychecks, admittedly...) you won't have the resources, connections or sheer manpower to turn up something that could be concealed from them.

glennmagusharvey

> you're saying the entire apparatus of our government is fundamentally and fatally corrupt or incompetent.

Actually, some tea-partiers think exactly this.

Bastion

...hm. It begins to dawn on me that everything I just wrote may have been a colossal waste of time.

But I don't know if I can believe that they sincerely think that. If you believe that the apparati of the government which screen elected officials are borked, then subjecting yourself to those same apparati doesn't seem to make sense. (If you're manipulating people with wild emotional claims and hoping they don't think them through, of course, that's another matter.) If you genuinely believe the wood rots so deeply, it seems the thing to grab isn't a ballot and a pencil but a pitchfork and a torch.

Tnu1138

Actually Glenn I don't trust anyone on Capitals Hill.

GLORIOUSLeader

That is not a healthy way to live. At least some of them want what's best for us, even if it's a minority. 

Radd

Personally, even if Obama weren't born in the United States, that's a stupid thing to argue about.  The «born in the United States» requirement is the stupidest sentence in the Constitution(ignoring the stuff allowing slavery that no longer applies).

Not really. It makes sure they have an American priority at least.

Tnu1138

Then I suggest you push to get an ammendment.

Radd

What?

Tnu1138

if you don't like something in the Constitution get it ammended that's why the process exists.

Chagen

Perhaps that line was there because the Founding Fathers didn't want some British guy to come over, become President, and then hand America back over?

Though, Congress would probably shoot that down anyway....

Ponicalica

«Not really. It makes sure they have an American priority at least.»

How?  I mean, someone who was born in the United States but lived in, say, Israel for most of their life but then came back to the United States could become president.

Radd

Technically, but it'll never happen.

BonSequitur

Tnu1138

Thank you for that.

Chagen

So there it is.

I see no reason as to why someone would remain a birther after unfalsifiable proof like that.

Tnu1138

They would deny it is unfalsable.

Longfellow

It is falsifiable. Just, nobody has provided counterevidence that would convince most reasonable people that the birth certificate is somehow invalid.

BonSequitur

Birth certificates are falsifiable documents, but they carry a number and information which can be corroborated by the records kept by the state that issued them (That certificate in fact was issued by the Hawaiian government a few years ago, from records). The point isn't the certificate itself, it's that the government of the state of Hawaii has record of one Barack Hussein Obama being born in Oahu in 1961.

Of course, any and all evidence can be discounted by a sufficiently kooky conspiracy theory. But there is no counter-evidence at all, and certainly claims that Obama has never presented his birth certificate are false.

Vorpy

Did you know:

That you can forge Birth Certificates and use them to make claims for Welfair with them and get more funding for children you do not have?

GLORIOUSLeader

Well, in that case, reality is a lie and I'll retreat back into my cave. 

Tnu1138

I'm with GL on this one I can't stand reality.

snowbull

^^^That sounds like something that could come back to bite you in the ass.

GLORIOUSLeader

I know. My cave modem could break and then you could be stuck without me.

Oh whatever would you do.