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Comments
I remember mention of that crazy Telvanni wizard, you know which one, in the present tense. (edit: that one with clone-wife-daughters.)
But that war will come regardless. Now or latter, eventually, the Empire will have to fight its war with the Thalmor. Unless they have honestly given up on Talos worship for good, in which case Skyrim is right to try to secede... but point is, all Ulfric did is to hurry up when said conflict comes, nothing more.
It would also still have been habitable under Dagoth Ur. He wanted to create an empire, a renewed Resdayn, not a desert. Sure, it would be an absolutely insane Empire with random mutations popping up everywhere as a common day occurence, and insane edicts passed from mad god-kings, but that probably falls under what you call "habitable, if not wonderfully so".
... And you don't see how that's a bad thing? Forcing the Empire into a war it's underprepared for?
No, I'm fairly sure they'll have to fight that anyway. Wiping out Talos worship is among the steps the Thalmor are taking to weaken Mundus, but while I don't have the document handy, I think they did have other stuff to do in Tamriel.
No, the conflict will come at the same time -- when the Thalmor are ready. Only instead of a reasonably-prepared Cyrodiil and Skyrim fighting the Thalmor, it'll be a mostly-prepared Cyrodiil and a recently-disemboweled Skyrim.
As you have pointed out yourself, it's been nearly 30 years since the end of the war. If the Empire is not prepared now, it never will be. Reconstruction and recovery should not take more than a generation, after all. So if you say the Empire nonetheless is not ready, when exactly will it be? Hell, give it further 30 years, and they might have forgotten about the whole thing entirely. Ulfric's actions are a wake-up call.
And as you have said yourself, it's not just the Empire preparing; the Thalmor are, too. So the more time you give to the Empire, the more time you give to them, too. And as for the disembowelled Skyrim thing - well, that's true, but as I've said, that's as much the Empire's fault as it is Ulfric's.,
Except thanks to the war, the Empire isn't preparing. The Thalmor are going to be ready, and the Empire is not.
No. No, it really isn't. Ulfric murdered the High King of Skyrim, who was willing to do what Ulfric wanted him to do, then instead of letting Skyrim choose a new High King as they normally would, he declared himself High King and went to war with all the parts of Skyrim that didn't immediately agree. The war is entirely on Ulfric.
Er, that's not really correct. There wouldn't be a post-war baby boom in Cyrodiil, due in part to both the staggering number of losses and the lack of incentives that led to the baby boom after World War 2.
As such, the Empire's going to be depopulated for quite some time to come.
So which side has the baby-killers again?
Well, that is the Empire's own choosing. Though, then again, it isn't really true anyway: The reason Tullius is on his own and doesn't get any reinforcement is exactly because Skyrim is just a secondary theatre for the Empire. The great majority of troops stays at the border to the Dominion.
Neither side has called a Moot. As for how Ulfric went about things, well, I agree he is a blundering, murderous, arrogant, obnoxious asshole. But nonetheless his cause is the right one.
Eh? WW2? As comparison for a pseudo-medieval society hardly usable. In pre-industrial times, population was for the most part stagnating, as the land could only feed so many people. In essence, the population grew until it began to starve, and thus hit a barrier. If or plagues reduced the population, then it could grow again... until it reached that barrier again. Now, that's a very rough overview, and in detail it didn't always happen like that exactly, but still, applied as a rough concept to the TES world that means it really should not take longer than a generation to regrow. And that's just population. The economic damage should be fixed even sooner.
Really, if the Empire isn't ready now, they never will be.
How can you say it's "his cause" when all evidence suggests that Ulfric only truly cares about usurping the throne of High King?
No. No it is not. The Empire outlawed Talos worship as a part of the treaty by which they didn't all die. They deliberately avoided enforcing this law until Ulfric made a huge deal about it (almost certainly as a political move, since there's no actual benefit to protesting a law that was only made as part of a treaty and isn't enforced) and attracted the Thalmor's attention, at which point they allowed the Thalmor to enforce it because, again, they didn't want to die. Then they went to war because Ulfric killed Skyrim's king and declared war on them. At no point in this chain of events has the Empire had more than one option.
Now, you'd argue that they could have let Skyrim leave the Empire, but prior to the civil war, almost nobody in Skyrim wanted to leave the Empire, and even now most of it doesn't.
The thing is, so many arguments against Ulfric boil down to him fighting a war among the human (or well, non-Elven Nazi) peoples, fighting an internal war when instead everybody should focus on fighting said Elven Nazis. But the problem is the same argument can be levied against the Empire: If fighting the external enemy should truly always be considered the number one priority, over fighting internal wars, then by that logic the Legion should have withdrawn as soon as the Stormcloaks thing became a substantial uprising. This accusation of fighting an internal conflict even while a common external enemy looms can rightfully be levied against both sides.
That argument would hold water except it doesn't.
There's, uh, a bunch of reasons for it.
Number one, the worst possible thing for an Empire to do is to just let an entire country violently secede from them. Sure, maybe if all the nobles of said country walked up to the Empire and were like "Yo we wanna secede", the Empire might negotiate something, but letting countries secede is roughly the most surefire way to ensure that they'd be lucky to still be holding on to Cyrodiil within a century.
Number two, and probably the most important reason for the war, the Empire needs Skyrim. It might not seem that way, but look at the Great War; it was only with the intervention of the Legion from Skyrim that they managed to win the war. The game might not give you this impression, but lore-wise, Nords are pretty badass fighters.
Number three, the High King/acting Regent of the High King did not want to secede. Elisif did not want to secede, and neither did Torygg. Upwards of half the Jarls in Skyrim did not want to secede from the Empire, even with the whole Talos ban thing in effect. When a country itself does not want to secede, just stepping back and allowing a rebellion to force it to is... really not cool.
I see no reason why the Empire should extend anywhere beyond Cyrodiil, or exist at all except as some form of Cyrodiilian state. I guess, part of my stance is that I've already been opposed to the (Septim) Empire out of principle in previous games, heh.
And if the Empire so desperately needs Skyrim, why doesn't Tullius get more resources? Civil war breaks out in Skyrim, and he fights it with just the garrison troops present. Which is what keeps the war going - neither does the Empire commit to ending it, nor does it withdraw from it. But even if you're right, and Skyrim is that needed... well in that case it seems strange to me it should be Cyrodiil calling the shots.
And it's a pretty strong statement to say "When a country itself doesn't want to secede". That clearly is not applicable on Skyrim, which is divided on the matter. So, either half of is forced to become part of an independent Skyrim even though they don't want to, or half of it is forced to stay part of the Empire even though they don't want to. Seems to me, both involve an equal measure of forcing.
I think that countries should be allowed to secede if they wish to. If they don't- see High Rock, Morrowind, etc- then sure, the Empire should extend as much as it wasn't.
If your problem is just that you hate the idea of the Empire at all, though, then this entire discussion is pointless and I'd prefer it if we just stopped posting about anything at all.
Because they need to defend their borders, too, and they need a whole lot more men for that than they can afford to give Tullius.
They have to defend pretty much the entirety of their southern border against invasion, from either the Aldmeri Dominion or the Argonians in Black Marsh- from the edge of Hammerfell right over to the border of Morrowind. That requires a huge number of forces, and I can see them needing pretty much every available man to do so.
Then we'll allow Skyrim to call the shots. Skyrim will do so much better than the entirety of the Empire, after all!
All sarcasm aside, Skyrim has no foot to stand on here. If Cyrodiil goes down, Skyrim's pretty much fucked. With an entire nation's resources behind them, the Thalmor no longer have to worry near as much about resources and such- they can just "appropriate" food from the various villages in Cyrodiil, much as many nations would in warfare, and send it straight up, instead of having to worry about sending it all the way from the Summerset Isles or buying it from Cyrodiil.
Skyrim'd be pretty much fucked as soon as that happened, unless a war with Cyrodiil weakened the Aldmeri Dominion to such an extent that they couldn't conquer another nation- and even as such, they'd be able to just chill inside their new borders for a few decades until they have repopulated their ranks.
It's made pretty damn clear that a huge part of the division was caused by the rebellion itself. Many of the people you'll speak to that hate the Empire hate them because of the civil war- they lost their daughters in the war, or an Imperial commander did something, or whatever.
Without the civil war, there were many fewer people that disliked the Empire. (There were also a lot more people neutral on the matter that now hate the Stormcloaks, at that.)
And, well, if the whole civil war didn't at least come across as one giant power grab by Ulfric. That's a pretty important point too.
Uh, Morrowind pretty clearly would have wanted to secede. The only truly pro-Imperial House was House Hlaalu, who had beenthe smallest of the five House before the invasion anyway (and in fact had only embraced it as a way to break out of their political marginalization by House Indoril). Telvanni didn't care either way, Redoran grudgingly accepted the Imperials, and Indoril and Dres would ideally have liked to see them kicked out ASAP. And the common population was habitually xenophobic and against any outsiders anyway, so as a whole they, too, probably didn't love the Empire.
If they stay in Cyrodiil or whatever other regions foolishly wanting to take part in it, they can do whatever they want. But I don't think of the Empire as something inherently good, or as something noble, or a great ideal, either. In fact, yes, I kinda do dislike the central theme of the Empire as 'leading the humans'. Having several nations instead of one Empire is just so much more interesting...
That is true, but usually you'ld think that the Imperial Legion reacts and shifts forces according to current necessity. The Dominion is a constant threat, but there is no war with them at the moment. On the other hand, there is war in Skyrim. The Empire seems to treat that civil war as nothing more than an unimportant local affair. Which probably tells something about how the province is viewed in the Imperial City...
True. I was being a bit facetious about your whole "Skyrim is so important to the Empire" argument. IF it is that important, it should call the shots. But I don't think it is. The Empire could survive without Skyrim and vice versa, and if the Thalmor attacks they could be allies. Well, theoretically, anyway. The current civil war makes that a bit less likely.
I think that's a more honest assessment. Just because people get bitter at the Empire for stuff done during the war doesn't automatically mean they loved it before; that's a bit shoddy reasoning. As it is, what we know is that Skyrim is divided in the middle, sou you'd get "forcing" either way.
(This argument has gone for days at this point, so I'm going to just address the core issue here.)
Thought exercise: Tell me one thing that makes Skyrim a better province than the Empire. Is Skyrim... less racist? Does it have a better military, maybe? (That one's a no, but it does have soldiers who can make really effective soldiers when trained.)
Or, I guess, before the whole Talos ban, in what way did the Empire make Skyrim a worse place?
A better province than the Empire? What? Do you mean, what makes Skyrim better than Cyrodiil? Well, objectively nothing. But those things are always subjective: For obvious reasons the people in Skyrim will of course care more about Skyrim than Cyrodiil - and vice versa. That is only natural, and fully justified.
Your other question has more merit, though when asking it to me this whole "before the Talos ban" exception is a bit weird, considering I've based like two thirds of my Stormcloak support on that
The other third would be my dislike for the Empire as a concept/ideal. Now, since you asked a very general question, let's make it even more general: In what way does the Empire make other places in general a worse place? After all, I have said I dislike the Empire in general
Well... the Imperial Legion is everywhere, Imperial monopoly companies can be found everywhere, Imperial temples are everywhere... the Empire does not just stand for political and military, but also cultural imperialism. They may not be racist per se, but they sure seem to think their culture superior over all others. The different peoples lose their distinction. Even in Morrowind, the most lightly controlled province (well, officially - de facto this of course would have to be Argonia) and the most 'alien' province this was something Vivec spoke about.
Now I don't think Nord culture is objectively better than Cyrodiilian culture, so even if there is assimilation I guess it doesn't mean Skyrim is objectively worse off. But it's still a point I dislike... as do many Nords, and as surely did most Dunmer. Add to that this, well, propagandistic-ideological base of the Empire, that it is in succession to the leaders of mankind (Alessia, Reman - and in fact it is), that is not just "a big realm in Tamriel" but in fact the realm destined to lead Tamriel or at least the human peoples... so that it is not just a realm, but an ideology of sorts, a 'manifest destiny' - that is a concept that doesn't sit well with me, either.
Now, if there are regions who fall for this concept and want to take the "blessings" of Imperial culture, fine. But that doesn't mean I'll like the Empire, and all regions who want to split off should be able to. In fact, at the start of the war there is a very neat geographic split in Skyrim that could have been made political... alas, neither side would even remotely have entertained that notion.
Given that they were basically pretending to ban Talos worship until Ulfric's actions led to it being enforced, it's quite a noteworthy distinction, since that means essentially all desire to secede in Skyrim results from Ulfric's actions more than from the Empire's.
Yes, I know. Now I could use a counter.-argument to that, but I already did. I think even more than once. This is getting repetitive. So I think Nova had the right the idea to lift the discussion onto another track...
Fair enough.
So yesterday I was exploring Blackreach and encountered a type of enemy I'd never seen before, with its own model and everything. I've spent hundreds of hours in Skyrim and there's still new stuff. Amazing.
^What enemy was that?
Chaurus Hunters.
Oh those things, they were added in Dawnguard and start appearing at high levels. They gave me quite the surprise too.
The 1.9 patch is out on PC. Goodbye Ogma Infinium glitch.
Just to check: when they say "Return its perks" do they mean "Remove all of the perks you've applied to this skill"?
http://penny-arcade.com/report/article/elder-scrolls-online-nails-the-online-stumbles-on-the-elder-scrolls-during-
Ooh, a hands-on with TESO.
Um. Classes. Not relying on them is one of the few things the main series games do right mechanically, but...okay, MMO, balance is key. Still, only four?
Okay, still wary, but somewhat appeased.
Hm. Sounds interesting, I guess.
Well, yeah. A leaf falling off a tree has more action and force behind it than some of those.
Okay, that's pretty cool.
...Okay, repeated raiding is something I've always kind of hated about MMOs, but some people like it, and they seem to have allowed for a story focus in dungeons here, so I won't complain.
YES.
Okay, still not sure if this will be good or not. Interesting stuff though.
People...bought Dawnguard instead of Dragonborn?
Hell, they bought Dawnguard at all?