Mass Effect

ClockworkUniverse

So, my friend, who just finished, had something to add to our evidence after I explained te theory.

Spoiler:

When Shepard shoots Anderson, the bullet wound later appears on Shepard.

Nova

Spoiler:

If Player Indoctrination Theory is true:

"Well, thanks for making the idea that my choices earlier in the game actually mattered completely false, Bioware. Wanna save the Geth and be a Paragon? Well, sucks. Turns out you've been indoctrinated. Yeah, bad end. Sorry, those choices didn't actually mean anything, you've boned the entire Galaxy. Thanks a lot, motherfucker."

If Player Indoctrination Theory isn't true:

"YOUR ENDING SUCKS AND YOU SHOULD FEEL BAD."

I don't like the notion that Player Indoctrination Theory is true, because it potentially invalidates a lot of the choices the player has made throughout the series. It's a running theme throughout the game that your choices actually make a difference to the universe at large, and that there's (nearly, dammit Kaiden) always a third option you can take. Making it so that you've boned the universe if you take any choice but to destroy all synthetics (Which could invalidate a lot of the choices you wanted to make anyway) is a pretty terrible decision in light of that.

I mean, since the second game when Legion showed up, I've been angling towards saving the Geth. From what I hear, it's actually possible to make peace between the Geth and the Quarians. Forcing me into a bad end because I don't want to invalidate that is just... not really a good way to take the game in.

I've been hearing rumours that they're going to make bonus ending material available through free DLC.

Now if only I could actually download DLC, that would be somewhat relevant. But nope, I'll just have an XBOX, a controller, and a physical copy of ME3.

So, pretty much no matter what happens, ME3's ending has pissed me off. Wee, fun.

Nova

Spoiler:

Also, here is a point I found interesting.

A much more defining characteristic of indoctrination, as told by the Retribution novel and backed up by the experiences of Saren and Benezia in the first game, is that the subject is aware of the indoctrination process as it progresses - they're just trapped inside their own minds while the Reapers take control of their bodies. Outsiders don't necessarily notice the difference, but the person inside the body does. We play the whole game inside Shepard's head, yet we see no evidence of that awareness.

I must say that this is a rather large hole in the Indoctrination theory. The theory presents a lot of small details that most players would never notice, in a game which thus far has not paid a lot of attention to the small details. However, to ignore this part of the indoctrination process completely would be pretty bad on the writer's end. It would not be too difficult to write in something that would show this is happening, but I have not seen this happen either.

Also, another post that caught my attention:

You created the "the Stargazer is an alien in a subsequent cycle" theory. Or even "the Reapers missed some humans". If that is true in every ending, you've lost in every ending. Including the best red ending. The Reapers have reaped the advanced races. This dude's race evolves or discovers advanced technology and finds out about and venerates the mook that fought the Reapers and the Reapers won. The next cyclemay have chance thanks to the warnings but the earth, the rest of the advanced galaxy, Shepard, and your companions are totally screwed. And the Reaper fleet is still out in dark space for Stargazer's race to get advanced enough to squish. The current cycle was lost. Shepard lost. If you get up in the rubble in some DLC, you've still already lost. The post credit sequence tells you so.

If there is NOT a subsequent cycle, the Reapers are ultimately defeated in every ending. Shepard's indoctrination state does not matter. Somehow, the galaxy is saved anyway. Just not by Shepard in the blue and green endings. The Reapers have to be neutralized somehow for there to not be a cycle. You've already won. If Shepard gets up in the rubble in some DLC, you've still already won. The post credit sequence tells you so.

The only way you can have it both ways is if the same stargazer scene means completely different things in different endings depending entirely on what you've read into it.

I can't accept that, so I don't believe the indoctrination theory.

So, yup.

Forzare

Spoiler:

"Well, thanks for making the idea that my choices earlier in the game actually mattered completely false, Bioware. Wanna save the Geth and be a Paragon? Well, sucks. Turns out you've been indoctrinated. Yeah, bad end. Sorry, those choices didn't actually mean anything, you've boned the entire Galaxy. Thanks a lot, motherfucker."

But the point is, Harbinger is trying to make you think that Destroy is the worst choice, because he doesn't want Shepard to want to destroy the reapers. Everyone has been hammering into you from the start "DESTROY THE REAPERS." The only people who say otherwise are indoctrinated. And it's not like there hasn't been a precedent to bad choices before. No one complained when you could choose to sleep with Morinth like an idiot and die. And when you choose Destroy, the synthetics aren't actually killed. The basis of indoctrination theory is that it's all in shepard's mind, so the choices at the very end only matter on a personal level.



I'd also say that if you're just mashing paragon and not thinking about stuff, especially in 3 where not going full paragon will lock you out of stuff, you're doing it wrong, but whatever.



Indoctrination theory doesn't invalidate any of your choices, though. That's part of the reason it's so popular.



Some would argue that destroying the mass relays invalidates your choices way more than indoctrination theory. If you take the ending at face value, everyone is either cut off from everyone else, with the majority of the galaxy's fleet stuck on a world that probably doesn't have many resources left, or dead from mass relay explosions, depending on how cynical you are. If indoctrination theory is true, the relays are still around. The Krogan are still cured and set to become a better part of the galaxy, the quatrains and the geth are still bros, etc.



Assuming its true, and Shepard chooses control or Synthesis, it doesn't mean the end of the galaxy. It just means that Shepard doesn't make it. There's no reason that one of your squad mates or Anderson or someone can't continue on and finish the fight. Considering that Shepard has accomplished the hard part already (getting the galaxy to unite to retake Earth), someone else could finish it by opening the citadel or whatever.






^ Or it could just be so far in the future that it doesn't really matter anymore which it is, because Shepard and the Reapers have been forgotten. I don't know why that's unacceptable.

I'm doing a bad job stating my points, so bluh, wait for INUH to come back and argue with him. He's better at it.

Forzare

Spoiler:

Also, I just thought of a problem with the indoctrination thing. The prothean hologram can detect indoctrination but doesn't detect shepard as having been indoctrinated. Though you could handwave that as the process still being unfinished. Not sure what to think about that.

The Reapers were using indoctrinated sleeper agents to wipe the Protheans out, even in Javik's time. I find it hard to believe that their detection tech was very good.

Nova

Spoiler:

Indoctrination theory doesn't invalidate any of your choices, though. That's part of the reason it's so popular.

Oh, no, that wasn't the problem with Indocrination Theory; that was the problem with the ending presenting itself straight.

Although, you must keep in mind that I'm just running off of the rampant spoilers over the internet, because seriously, Mass Effect 3 costs $98, and I'm not willing to just fork over that type of money for a game that's not absolutely perfect in every single way.

However, from what everyone's saying, there are three options;

- Control, which essentially says "Yes, we can control the Reapers, so we won't kill them." This is what everyone is saying is the 'Indoctrination choice'; essentially, it's bowing to the Reaper's will. I can live with that.

- Synthesis, which is "Merge with the Reapers and become the pinnacle in evolution." This is, essentially, becoming the Reapers.

- Destroy, which is "Destroy all synthetics." This includes the Reapers, the Geth, and a lot of the technology in the universe.

Of which one option is not letting the Reapers win (and killing a lot of people I really don't want to kill), and two are letting the Reapers win.

This is considering the ending cutscenes, which have been discussed... at length, in multiple forums I read. But, essentially, in two of the endings (Control and Synthesis) you have just the ending clips and then Game Over, while in Destroy you also have a shot of Shepard waking up in some place that has been determined as London for some reason, which is implied to be a part of the 'Dark age' the producers wanted to lead into.

However, this is all second-hand knowledge. However, from what I have gleaned, Shepard's choice there has far-reaching consequences. It is nothing so simple as 'Shepard just dies and it goes'; if Shepard chooses Destroy, then all the Reapers die, but if she chooses, say, Synthesis...

I'd also say that if you're just mashing paragon and not thinking about stuff, especially in 3 where not going full paragon will lock you out of stuff, you're doing it wrong, but whatever.

I have definitely not just been mashing Paragon, as the whole Geth debate we went into explored (I would think that that debate would have at least shown that I was thinking through my options for each choice). However, it is the type of Shepard I want to play- a figure who inspires others to do good around her.

Or it could just be so far in the future that it doesn't really matter anymore which it is, because Shepard and the Reapers have been forgotten. I don't know why that's unacceptable.

Well, there's two points here.

One is that I find it highly unlikely that Bioware decided to just show us some random grandpa telling his random grandson some random story at a random point in the future. No, the ending there definitely implies that the story he was telling was the story we have been playing, which would necessitate remembering both Shepard and the Reapers.

And secondly, the other biggest point is that the ending is the same no matter which choice you have. This says that, no matter whether you go Control, Synthesis or Destroy, the same thing happens; either the Reapers are defeated, as is implied by, y'know, the people there being human, or the Reapers won, and these people aren't human, because darned silhouettes.

The only other explanation is that the same scene means different things depending on the choices you made- which would, frankly, be dumb.

 

The entire point behind my post, though, was that I won't be able to download the DLC they're offering up, even if it's free, but that DLC is meant to explore the ending better. I'm stuck with what everyone has now, but with how I've been playing Shepard, the choices will run counter to everything I've been aiming for.

Nova

Spoiler:

No, wait, I get what you mean. If Indoctrination Theory is correct, then you're not actually making the choice to destroy the synthetics, as you're not actually making a choice at all.

I would say that is just plain bad writing, though. If Indoctrination Theory is correct, then, then if I ever play Mass Effect 3, my story just kind of... stops. I go through, I do all this stuff, I fight off two Reapers, armies of Geth and Collectors, I die and get resurrected, I change the relations between races on galactic scales, I fight off Reaper Indoctrination, and then- nothing.

It's over. I don't actually get to see how the story ends, I don't know if the Reapers win, I don't get to actually do anything. Story over, that's it.

I think I would actually prefer to believe that the ending is really really half-cocked, if only so I have an ending.

ClockworkUniverse

- Destroy, which is "Destroy all synthetics." This includes the Reapers, the Geth, and a lot of the technology in the universe.

This is where you're wrong. See, the option is "Destroy the Reapers." And Harbinger tells you that as a side-effect, it will distroy all the synthetics and Mass Relays and stuff for no particular reason. The fact that Shepard can survive this ending (and only this ending) when the destruction of a Mass Relay causes it to explode like a supernova and blow up the entire system it's in proves that that's just a lie.

I think I would actually prefer to believe that the ending is really really half-cocked, if only so I havean ending.

I think an ending so full of holes that it blatantly can't happen in the setting it takes place in isn't better than an ending that leaves a bit hanging.

Sorry to blacktext; Spoilerboxing it wouldn't work for some reason

ClockworkUniverse

I'm writing up a full set of notes on the ending, mostly compiled from this thread.

Nova

 

This is where you're wrong. See, the option is "Destroy the Reapers." And Harbinger tells you that as a side-effect, it will distroy all the synthetics and Mass Relays and stuff for no particular reason. The fact that Shepard can survive this ending (and only this ending) when the destruction of a Mass Relay causes it to explode like a supernova and blow up the entire system it's in proves that that's just a lie.

And then the Mass Relays actually do explode. Even if you pick the Destroy ending, the Mass Relays actually do explode, and this is shown to happen. All the Mass Relays.

I think an ending so full of holes that it blatantly can't happen in the setting it takes place in isn't better than an ending that leaves a bit hanging.

Well, see, the thing is, the way Indoctrination Theory sets out, it leaves more than just a bit hanging.

What was the comparison used again?

It's like if the Return of the Jedi faded to black as Palpatine was electrocuting Luke. The scene we are shown is the climax; storming the Reapers and attempting to kill them is the climax of the game, which should be followed by a resolution, to give us closure on the story.

Indoctrination Theory, however, tells us that we've actually been given a story that ends partway through the climax. This not only robs me of a climax, it also robs me of anything approaching a resolution.

So, yes. I'd prefer a really badly done ending to no ending at all.

ClockworkUniverse

And then the Mass Relays actually do explode. Even if you pick the Destroy ending, the Mass Relays actually do explode, and this is shown to happen. All the Mass Relays.

Shepard is hallucinating. That's the whole point of the indoctrination theory. If the relays had actually exploded, given that Arrival established that they destroy the entire system they're in when they're destroyed, every character would be dead.

And then we see them not dead. This is part of what I mean about "the endings as shown cannot actually happen in this setting."

Well, see, the thing is, the way Indoctrination Theory sets out, it leaves more than just a bit hanging.

It does. I think the game should have gone on an hour or two more and explored the actual consequences of what just happened.

But the ending as presented is just so bad that it's not preferable, to me, to a bullshit cliffhanger.

Nova

Shepard is hallucinating. That's the whole point of the indoctrination theory. If the relays had actually exploded, given that Arrival established that they destroy the entire system they're in when they're destroyed, every character would be dead.

So, basically, everything is a lie, you have to ignore what resolution there is, and you're left with nothing.

Weeee.

But the ending as presented is just so bad that it's not preferable, to me, to a bullshit cliffhanger.

Well, tell me, which would you prefer; an ending that makes no sense, flies in the face of established facts, and gives you some sense of closure, or a theory that essentially tells you to fuck off, and proceeds to not even tell you if the thing you've been working towards for three games and over a hundred hours of gameplay happens or not?

Because honestly, I will take the most bullshit of endings if it means there's an ending. Otherwise, there's nothing. No ending, no closure, no resolution, no emotional climax to finish off the game.

And to me, there is no worse sin (uh, in terms of like, telling a story in a video game. Murder and all that jazz is still a worse sin) than just leaving your players with no closure. That's the worst thing that could have happened. All the time, energy and effort I invested in the game is, essentially, fruitless.

So, as I said, I'll take even the worst, most half-baked ending possible. I'll rage, I'll hate it, I'll tell everyone how deep my well of vitriolic anger at it runs, but at least it's not a massive "Fuck you" to the players.

ClockworkUniverse

Spoiler:

If the ending made any more sense than, say, all the Reapers suddenly turning into unicorns or something, I'd be okay with it. But it so thoroughly shatters my suspension of disbelief that I just can't consider it (at least, the face value version) a legitimate part of the story. Which means that, to me, there's no resolution either way.

Well, unless you count the entire game up to that point, which was basically resolving every single subplot in the series.

Nova

Oh hey, Spoiler tags work again.

Spoiler:

It doesn't actually resolve a lot of plot points. What about, y'know, the Reaper invasion? The massive invasion by powerful superentities that we've been fighting against for three games? What about the actual resolution to that conflict? What happens after that? How do relations and such end up happening afterwards? What happens to our squadmates afterwards?

I will also admit that part of my dislike for Indoctrination Theory is due, in part, to the fact that it can be shortened to iTheory.

ClockworkUniverse

Spoiler:

But I don't feel any resolution of those questions from the ending as-is either, since the ending contradicts canon in so many ways that it can't possibly happen.

The way I see it, the options are that Bioware tried an ambitious experiment and it didn't quite go right, or they just plain forgot how writing works. I'd really prefer for the former to be true.

Goddamn it, now I won't be able to see it without thinking that -_-

Nova

But there is a sense of resolution. We blew everything up! That's a resolution!

As I've said, it's a terrible, terrible, terrible resolution that I hate the very thought of. But, the thing is, at least it's not a cop out.

And as I'll never be able to download any DLC that comes out later and explains it, all I have is everything that's contained on the physical disc.

Or, as another person put it for me:

The indoctrination theory makes more sense than the literal endings BUT as an ending to a trilogy with no more to come it still makes no sense.

Why?

Because it's the end of the series and we still don't know what the feth happens!

ClockworkUniverse

So I guess the debate here is less "did bioware screw it up" and more "in what manner and for what reasons did bioware screw it up?"

Nova

Because it's pretty much incontrovertible that Bioware screwed up. If they play the ending straight, that's a terrible ending, and if Indoctrination Theory is correct, then it's a terrible not-ending.

MadassAlex

No matter how you slice it, the Indoctrination Theory's major flaw is that it really has no place in Mass Effect. We spent the first two games as the hero of a space opera shooting bad guys and doing special operations missions in space with lazors pew pew, and suddenly Mass Effect wants to be Silent Hill. 

If Indoctrination Theory is the actual intent here, it was the wrong series for it. This is the kind of thing you have to build and support over multiple games if it's going to be part of a series. And even then, I don't think a game about blasting bad guys is the right context for it. 

Most games, when they do this kind of thing, enforce it somewhat mechanically and those mechanical elements can provide clues. Little inconsistencies, things you suddenly can or cannot do, interactions that are just a little "off". It's a fine balance in any game, but Mass Effect 3 failed it on multiple accounts. 

ClockworkUniverse

On a lighter note.

If you shoot a Blackstar at a Reaper on Palaven, it actually hits the Reaper and detonates and the Reaper does its scream thing.

Forzare

I've been listening to the soundtrack that came with my deluxe edition.



This game really had damn good music.

ClockworkUniverse

So, what do you think of the theory that the ending DLC was actually the ending Bioware intended to use, but then EA decided that they'd get more money if it was DLC? It would explain a lot.

Forzare

What I think will depend on when it gets released.



If it gets released in the next few weeks (say, before May), then I'll buy that it was part of the plan all along. If they announce at PAX that it'll be a while yet, then I'll believe that this is more Bioware trying to fix the mess they've gotten themselves into.



Unless info has been released that I've missed.

ClockworkUniverse

Well, they said that they're going to be going into detail about it and possibly announcing a release date in early April.

And even if it's not made yet, that doesn't mean EA didn't have a hand in it.

Forzare

I heard that they were going to say something early April, but that could go either way.

And even if it's not made yet, that doesn't mean EA didn't have a hand in it.

The only thing is, if this was planned, then I would think that they'd want to start work on it and get it out the door as soon as possible.

ClockworkUniverse

That's true.

Even if this wasn't planned, the ending is rushed enough (even accounting for the theory) that I'd be willing to blame EA.

Forzare

I'll definitely buy it, since I love Mass Effect and pretty much everything Bioware does, but I'm really not a fan of the precedent this sets.



I'd be a lot more comfortable if it somehow comes out that they honestly did just fuck up the ending and now they want to fix it.



Unless it comes out free, but yeah right.

ClockworkUniverse

Oh, I'm definitely buying it. I'm just pissed.

As I said to a friend of mine in a text on the subject of it being free:

EA? Release free DLC? Hah. With the shit they pull, we're lucky they don't just charge us every time we launch one of their games.

Forzare

After listening The Fleets Arrive on my iPod, I decided to go on YouTube and watch that scene again. Just that scene when all the galaxy's fleets arrive at the Charon Relay is one of the best moments in the game, IMO.



I always thought the Destiny Ascension had kind of a silly design from the first time I played ME1, but I still get chills when it warps in with the rest of the fleet.



^ Yeah...

ClockworkUniverse

Spoiler:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=467pmIX-oZo