Mass Effect

ClockworkUniverse

I think it's more likely that full indoctrination happens before the Citadel. When Shepard wakes up in the Destroy ending, she's surrounded by/buried under what looks a lot like stone and concrete and rebar. The Citadel is a lot shiner than that, and it explodes anyway. Shepard wouldn't survive a fall to the planet; she was already killed once by a very similar set of circumstances.

That's true...but if you're in a pile of rubble on Earth, the decision you make has no bearing on anything, because you're in a pile of rubble on Earth.

Is there some way you could have gotten back down?

Vega mentions hearing a humming noise, which is indicative of indoctrination tech if I remember correctly.

When's that?

IIRC, the humming noise Kaidan mentions in ME1 is just indicative that the relay monument in the Citadel...isn't a monument, but the relays are Reaper tech, so...

Forzare

Stop using the black highlight, it's annoying to read on my phone. :P

Spoiler:

That version of the theory says that the three-way choice at the end is basically deciding whether Shepard is able to resist the indoctrination or not. Copy pasta out of laziness:

This moment, when you are standing there, agonizing over your choice? This is your indoctrination moment. This is where, it could be (fantastically and insanely) argued that this is the moment when indoctrination and all of its insidious power becomes as real as it possibly CAN be to the Player. Think about it! We stand there. We

agonize. We freak out about the ridiculous choices, and we wonder (like Shepard would) why we just can't ARUGE with the Catalyst (like Shepard would). And then, as this reality seems to be the only way forward (much like how indoctrination presents a version of reality to the indoctrinated that he/she sees as being the ONLY REAL OPTION -- echoes of TIM, Kai Leng, Saren here), we begin to accept it. Tremulously, we start to make our choice.



If you choose Control, then you, the player -- the one who moves through the game though Shepard's eyes; every choice s/he has ever made in the game has been directly because of you -- have been indoctrinated. It may

have been because you thought you could save your crew, your LI, or that you really could gain perfect Control over the Reapers because you are Shepard. Regardless, you have been duped. Indoctrinated by the game.

Your slow exposure to the Reapers in 2007 culminates to this final choice -- complete and free player agency and determination.



If you choose Synthesis, you face a fate similar to that of Control. It's debatable to me at this point as to whether or not you have chosen to fulfill the Reapers' purpose, but indoctrination is still a heavy possibility with this one. The only reason that I state this with any certainty is because, like the ending we see with Control, Shepard is dead at the final credits.



If you choose Destroy, then the Player Indoctrination Theory submits that this is you, the player, deciding whether or not Shepard overcomes the indoctrination attempt being rained upon him/her by Harbinger/the Catalyst. If you decide this option, and if you have enough EMS to ensure that Shepard has enough real-world time to get through the indoctrination attempt/hallucination -- Shepard lives. We see him/her breathing in the rubble of London streets at the end of the game. Shepard has defied indoctrination. You, yourself, have defied indoctrination.

I don't know how Shepard could have gotten back to Earth if she was physically on the Citadel when it exploded.



Vega mentions humming in a Zaeed-style conversation, I think.



The Indoctrination codex entry says that the first signs of Indoctrination are headaches and buzzing/ringing in the ears.

ClockworkUniverse

Sorry. I just didn't know if indents worked in spoilertags...apparently they do.

Spoiler:

So does that mean that your decision only actually matters on a personal level, while the actual battle is decided by people other than Shepard? I actually really like that.

As for the difference between the control and synthesis endings, I'd suggest that it's just to increase the illusion of free will. There's not just one option presented as good; that would be too obvious. There are two, and thus the player is too busy thinking about which of those two is better to raise the larger question of WTF is going on.

The bit about the ringing ears is interesting. But if it's the Normandy doing it, then wouldn't you be indoctrinated long before that? And wouldn't someone other than the person who's been on your crew the least be the one to notice it?

Alkthash

Unless the rest of your crew have already become accustomed to the noise and don't notice it anymore.

Forzare

Spoiler:

So does that mean that your decision only actually matters on a personal level, while the actual battle is decided by people other than Shepard? I actually really like that.

Agreed.  Though if this turns out to be right and there is a new ending DLC following up on it, we'll see how they actually implement that.

As for the difference between the control and synthesis endings, I'd suggest that it's just to increase the illusion of free will. There's not just one option presented as good; that would be too obvious. There are two, and thus the player is too busy thinking about which of those two is better to raise the larger question of WTF is going on.

Agreed.  Plus, I think it's telling that the two "wrong" answers had both previously been championed by heavily indoctrinated antagonists.

The bit about the ringing ears is interesting. But if it's the Normandy doing it, then wouldn't you be indoctrinated long before that? And wouldn't someone other than the person who's been on your crew the least be the one to notice it?

I don't know.  I just thought it was worth bringing up.

Unless the rest of your crew have already become accustomed to the noise and don't notice it anymore.

That could potentially explain it.

ClockworkUniverse

That does make sense...

Spoiler:

Though I still think if Shepard were that heavily indoctrinated, Arrival would have ended with a Reaper victory.

Forzare

Spoiler:

I just think that the process started there, and was continued throughout 3.  Having Shepard spend two days next to a powerful Reaper artifact without any effect seems pretty convenient.

Unrelated, but it made me laugh:

Alkthash

Spoiler:

IIRC, the codex entry on indoctrination explained that it takes place over anywhere from several weeks to months, unless the reaper brute forces it and gets something little more useful than a husk. The 2 days of exposure in the Arrival wasn't enough to completely win over Shepard, but enough to plant seeds in his/her subconscious that could grow as the game goes on.

ClockworkUniverse

Spoiler:

I do think that's where it started, but that doesn't work with the theory that the Normandy's doing indoctrination. If it's not the Normandy, though, Vega can't be indoctrinated

^^That is awesome.

^I added spoiler tags for you. The markup is [spioler][/spioler] but spelled right.

Forzare

Spoiler:

I don't think that's necessarily a contradiction.  It could be both; started by Object Rho, then compounded by something weaker on the Normandy.

EDI was built with a combination of the VI on Luna and Reaper tech, so it could be her core.  Or, it could be the Reaper IFF.  It's not inconceivable that EDI's new body could have some kind of Reaper tech in it, considered it was built by Cerberus. Hell, it could even be something a sleeper agent slipped onboard while the Normandy was under lockdown.

ClockworkUniverse

That does make sense...

Ooh, here's an idea.

Spoiler:

At the end of Arrival, he's just barely not indoctrinated. The Reapers arriving on Earth then increases it just enough to give him some minor hallucinations and lack of sleep: some of the early symptoms. And finally, visiting the indoctrination lab Cerberus has working pushes him over the edge.

Forzare

Spoiler:

That actually makes a lot of sense.  And it's shown that adrenaline can speed the process; when is Shepard going to be more adrenaline'd than when she's fighting to retake Earth?

Also, the more I see, the more I'm convinced that the only time that kid is real is when we see him playing with the toy fighter.

Alkthash

Spoiler:

He could have been real up until his shuttle got shot down. All the subconscious indoctrination programs would need is a convenient image and set of emotions to latch onto.

Forzare

Spoiler:

That's what I figured at first, but there's some weird stuff going on with the kid.

He starts outside the Alliance building.  Then when the Reapers hit, he climbs up a random building without footholds or ladders, which just happens to be the one Shepard cuts through.  He is unharmed and unshaken by the Reaper exploding the building.

The door is locked, but it opens just for him.

He's silent in the vent. 

When Shepard is distracted by Anderson, he disappears, and you can hear a reaper growl.  Apparently, in the third book, the Reapers would growl like that when Paul Grayson would resist the indoctrination.

He keeps showing up near "Danger" signs.

No one ever interacts with him.  Anderson never acknowledges that there's a kid, and no one helps him into the shuttle.  There's a bunch of people there who should have helped him up, since he obviously struggles climbing in.

It's just suspicious is all.

In the end, it's not that important, but it's still something to think about.

ClockworkUniverse

Spoiler:

Wow, he's a lot more suspicious than I realized. I thought it was just the lack of interaction.

Forzare

Spoiler:

It is like falling down the rabbit hole and landing on the mother of all conspiracy theories.

Also, apparently all the bodies in the Citadel are wearing Ashley's/Kaidan's armor.

ClockworkUniverse

Whoa.

Forzare

Seriously.



I don't want to get my hopes up too much, since it is giving them a lot of credit, and it's pretty much unprecedented, but the closer I look, the more planned this all seems.



And if so, that's pretty awesome.

ClockworkUniverse

Indeed.

Forzare

Spoiler:

the eyes

ClockworkUniverse

Spoiler:

EDI's body has them too. I'm not entirely certain what they indicate.

ClockworkUniverse

WAIT A MINUTE.

Spoiler:

The ending colors! They're part of the player's indoctrination!

We've grown used to blue things being the right thing to do, and red things being things assholes would do. So they made the endings where the Reapers win blue and green to trick us into picking them!

Forzare

Spoiler:

Yup. 

And if you go renegade in the conversation with the Illusive Man, he tries to shoot you, whereas with Paragons he'll commit suicide.  It's like Harbinger is trying harder to break Shepard when it's more likely that she'll pick the red Destroy option.

Also, the effect on the Catalyst's voice isn't just reverb.  You can hear Jennifer Hale and Mark Meer under the kid's voice.

ClockworkUniverse

I didn't have enough reputation for that, even though I'd 100%'d the entire series T_T

Oh, wow...holy shit. Doesn't that pretty much confirm it, then? I mean, there's literally no other reason for that to happen.

ClockworkUniverse

Spoiler:

Forzare

^pffffffahahaha

^^It is at least some pretty solid evidence.

Spoiler:

Some people have said that during certain lines you can hear Harbinger too, which would be conclusive proof, but I haven't been able to hear it myself, so take that with a massive grain of salt.  Unless you can hear it too.

ClockworkUniverse

^Now we need to find someone with audio editing superpowers to confirm that.

Forzare

Do you remember the three points that Shepard has the dreams?  I feel like that could be significant.

ClockworkUniverse

Spoiler:

Waitaminute, was the last one after visiting the indoctrination facility?

Forzare

Spoiler:

I don't remember...  T_T  I'll try to dig that info up.

Regarding Harbinger's voice under the Catalyst's:

The bit that I've seen pointed to most is the Catalyst's last line at roughly 5:05, specifically the word "choose".  I can hear what they're talking about, but I think it might just be Meer's voice being a little more prominent.  What do you think?