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Comments
Unless, as I said, you simply multiply the numbers.
In such a case, I would go to the fridge and open the egg carton. My thought processes would be something along the line of okay, normally I need two eggs. I need four times that many, so I'll get eight.
Simple, clean and efficient. I would then add a notation to my cookbook, saying (srv 4 need 8) next to where I have written (srv 1 need 2) down.
Known value.
Known relationship.
Previously unknown value.
Ergo, algebra.
It doesn't matter that you're not using a written formula with representative values and mathematical symbols. What matters is the process of thought and logic, and what you're doing is deriving a final value from an existing value and a relationship between values. That can only ever be algebra -- you just don't think of it as algebra.
To use a different example with different disciplines, I don't usually think of swinging a sword as geometry. That doesn't change the fact that it is geometry, in essence, though. Even though I'm not thinking in terms of triangles, circles and angles, I'm using those as tools in the abstract to inform my movements. Mathematics is unescapable like that.
Known value.
Known relationship.
Previously unknown value.
If you wish to claim that is algebra, go ahead.
I think this excerpt from this article makes the point (and yet again, I resort to quoting others because I can't find the words to say it myself, blah):
1 + 1 isn't exactly a logical relationship, though, because it doesn't change. 2x + y is, because values can be used in place of x and y, so the result will always be consistent with that rule. Mind you, I goofed in my last post because I was thinking in context of the whole "dish" while only quoting one part of it, but the essence is there.
Anyway, nouns a qualitative rather than quantitative; the concept of an "egg" is abstract enough that it doesn't register as a mathematical value. So you could have the equation as m(ilk) + 2e(ggs) = d(ish).
Gah. Fuck, it's too late to really be explaining this.
Look, here's the thing; you're approaching it from one perspective. I'm approaching it from another.
To me, the whole concept of "Algebra is creating a formula to calculate how many eggs you need in a dish" is massively overcomplicating it. It's exactly that sort of thought, that abstraction, that makes the concept so confusing.
It's a very simple concept; I have a dish I need to make for four people. I know I need two eggs in order to make the dish for one person. So, I get out four times as many eggs as needed; four groups of two.
That's exactly how I approach everything. It is not abstracted, which is what algebra needs to be algebra; it is real, physical objects in front of me that I use.
That is how I need things to be in order to understand them. I can't abstract them like that; I can't reduce them to little numbers in my head. I need to understand how it all fits in, because otherwise the knowledge is useless to me.
To go back to the earlier example; I just need to get out more eggs than I usually get. I just figure out how many eggs I need by doing a basic arithmeticy equation in my head; it's 4*2, or four groups of two eggs.
I don't go around abstracting these things, because then I have no context to apply it to, and then the numbers get jumbled in my head and I just sit there getting more and more frustrated at myself.
It's not like in writing, where everything has a clear purpose; a simile draws a comparison between two objects for descriptive and emotive purposes, drawing a vague image for the reader and doing so concisely, which allows for condensation of narrative and provides imagery for the reader, as well as creating investment in the story through emotion. That's not what algebra is; it doesn't allow everything to fit, and algebraic thinking doesn't allow me to fit everything into my head.
Fuck, it's too late/early for this.
You could.
But you don't need to know algebra to figure the situation out, even if moving the numbers about in your head technically counts as algebra.
Honestly, even if you find a career that doesn't use it, you still have to otherwise. Algebra is how you project your finances and debts beyond a paycheck-to-paycheck basis. Not being able to look that far ahead is part of the reason banks got away with so much predatory lending.
1+1=2 is certainly algebra. After all it only makes sense once you've specified that the integers (including 0) Z is a (abelian, though not important for this operation) group with respect to the operation plus.
Algebra is about the study of albegraic structures, so any time you have an algebraic structure, like addition of two numbers, it's a form of algebra.
Turns out 1+1=2 is actually pretty hard...when you have to define arithmetic first.
"From this proposition it will follow, when arithmetical addition has been defined, that 1+1=2."
—Volume I, 1st edition, page 379 (page 362 in 2nd edition; page 360 in abridged version). (The proof is actually completed in Volume II, 1st edition, page 86, accompanied by the comment, "The above proposition is occasionally useful.")
And who said that mathematicians don't have a sense of humour.
Of course the whole project of which principia mathematica was a part of turned out to be unrealisable as Gödels's incompleteness theorem showed in 1931.
Also I used to think that I didn't actually need abstract algebra, though it was still a fun course. However 2-3 years down the line it turned out to actually be fairly useful in quantum field theory and particle physics. Though I guess that it is fairly irrelevant for the original point. Still, it's kind of fun that even at university, physics students who otherwise use a lot mathematics, will often find (a more abstract) form of algebra useless, only to later find out that it can actually be used.
It's a pretty common joke that the mathematicians' job is to invent math, and the physicists' job is to come up with something batshit insane enough to use it.
Nova is pretty much my voice in this thread.
I just don't care about all the annoying polynomial, vertexes, matrices, quadratic formula, parabola stuff. They can't just relate it to things I'll need? No, it has to be extra boring and extra unnecessary.
But you're excited about learning Japanese, which short of a relocation to Japan, is incredibly low in terms of "is this useful to me in day to day life"
Oh man, if I could get a maths-nerds and linguistic-nerds dickwaving contest going that would be the best thing ever. I'd probably have to look up most of the words being slung about, but it would be amazing.
@ GMH
Perhaps not as easily and some people will take to it better, but it's really just breaking down the physiological reactions people usually have for certain emotions and training people to recognize them.
> walks into thread
> nobody's pissing on humanities
> sheathes weapon, smiles, walks away
Here is the difference, Alkthash. I like japanese video games. I want to play those japanese video games. To do that, I need to know the language.
There isn't any video game I want to play that I can't because I don't know this math stuff.
Even omitting mentions of localizations being a thing, the fact is that knowing how to handle your own economy is actually quite important. And that sometimes will involve algebra, believe it or not.
Yes, Juan, because every single Japanese video game is localized.
And we already went over all the reasons why algebra is important. Nova had tons to say about that already.
Nova always has tons to say about her opinion. :P
I'll just reiterate my point: algebra is a very useful toolbox to have on hand, for both career advancement (if you want to get ahead in your job or in the organization you work for eventually) and finding a job (if you end up losing the one you have because of stupid things like the economy).
I'll also reiterate my agreement with Bee that math is not taught well.
I am fairly certain that 1+1 is a form of arithmetic, not algebra.
I think I already spoke about 1+1=2 making sense somewhere in the thread- let me see- no, actually, I didn't.
Okay, the concept of 1+1 is really simple. You have one stone; and over here, you have another stone. If you pick up the stone and place it with the other stone- one stone plus one stone- you now have two stones. That's the very fundamentals of arithmetic.
Technically, most arithmetic can be done with algebra. However, it's equally true that basic algebra- the stuff that you will end up using in your life- can also be done with arithmetic. I don't know if you can do, say, quadratic theory using arithmetic, but that's not relevant to most people.
The same sentence covers this point; it can involve algebra, but arithmetic can cover the same function in life. There are probably things that this won't cover, but they are situational things that many people won't stumble over in their lives.
It's all about balancing the resources it'll require with the use you'll get out of it and how much you enjoy it in itself...
... using algebra you can optimize the utility function!
But seriously, though, for most layman uses, the algebra is neatly packaged in computer applications that require bare bones knowledge at most. Likewise, most of the japanese things you'd want to play/read/watch are getting translated anyway.
I'm not sure where I'm going with all this, but my first sentence in this post (not counting the quote) is still valid.
Yeah, Ni No Kuni is coming out in the West anyway so
Original Concept do not steal. Is the demo good? I've heard some things about it.
I haven't played it, but from what I can observe, it pretty much looks like Pokemon meets Narnia by way of Miyazaki.
My friend compared the art direction to Wind Waker.
Not surprising. Nintendo have been aping off Miyazaki for ages by way of the Zelda games, at least when it comes to certain visual and aural elements. Ever since about Ocarina of Time, and definitely by the time Majora's Mask rolls around, the Zelda games have been the closest anyone's come to what might be called a "Miyazaki game" until now.
Compare how Nintendo and Miyazaki handle, say, forest environments. Remember those impish forest spirits in Princess Mononoke? Notice how they seem to have a certain design synchronicity with Deku people, right down to the sounds they make? Both types of entity even work on the same combination of curiosity, unease and silliness.
So yeah, I understand why your friend might say that, but I think he's got it the wrong way around. Miyazaki's influence has been instrumental in shaping the overall aesthetic of the 3D Zelda games, so I'm not surprised if some people connect the dots and presume that Ni No Kuni is Zelda-influenced in that aspect, even if it's backwards.
Anyway, I'm reasonably sure Ni No Kuni is going to rock.
It's about 50/50 for me, Noimporta.
Fuck, I knew we forgot something.
That's silly, think of all the Japanese media you've already consumed translated, now think of the untranslated stuff you want to consume. One list is going to be much larger than the other one. Unless your tastes are pretty specific, this is usually the case for most translatable stuff, if many people think it's worth translating, it'll get translated.
Then again, Hyougemono....
I guess then that I must like specific things. To name a few things, I'd like to play Final fantasy Type-0, the Senran Kagura series (Yes, I know shut up), and probably the Black Rock Shooter game. Type-0, especially. Also the Tiger and Bunny games, Danganronpa, Time Travelers, The Ace Attorney Investigation sequel, E.X. Troopers looks fun, Monster Hunter games, Sol Trigger...Plus, being able to play the japanese versions of new games BEFORE they come out here would be a plus.