GODDAMMIT KATAWA SHOUJO WHY AREN'T YOU FINISHED YET

MillerCross

do it, you fag

do it

ClockworkUniverse

Can't. Reading Emi's route.

But basically, I find them more akin to choose your own adventure books with pictures.

And then there are the ones that don't have choices, making them more akin to regular books with pictures.

That's just not a sufficient level of interactivity.

Forzare

have I ever mentioned that people getting all irritating and nipicky over semantics when everyone knows what's being said anyway is the most annoying thing

cuz it is

ClockworkUniverse

Well, see, I'm of the opinion that discarding the misleading label is the first step in helping the medium stop being so unsuccessful.

And since I'm attempting to write for the medium, that's very important to me.

All Nines

"
have I ever mentioned that people getting all irritating and nipicky over semantics when everyone knows what's being said anyway is the most annoying thing

cuz it is"

Thank you.

I know what you mean, INUH, but at the same time, that's preeeeetty nitpicky. :P

Also, I'm not sure how changing a label (and a label that is still accurate, even if more tenuously than when tied to other works in the medium) is going to make the industry more successful.

ClockworkUniverse

If you call it a game, and put it next to games on store shelves (or web pages or whatever) you're implicitly marketing it to people who want to play a game.

All Nines

So it's a very different genre than the other games on the shelf (or web page). A quick look at the hypothetical back of the box can give a potential buyer a decent idea of what it would actually be like to play it, and since it's still run in a gaming format (starting menu, found on video game consoles and PC, interactivity), I call it a game. And I'd call choose your own adventure books "books"; I don't think they should be acknowledged as a separate medium just for having different levels of interactivity. At the core of the storytelling style, they're still too similar to their parent media.

Great, now I've gotten myself into a semantic debate. I hope you're happy, Eenoo. >.<

ClockworkUniverse

At the core of the storytelling style, they're still too similar to their parent media.

Other than the process you do to start consuming it, I don't see how this is the case with VNs and videogames.

A quick look at the hypothetical back of the box can give a potential buyer a decent idea of what it would actually be like to play it

Yes, and then said potential buyer will put it back on the shelf, because he was looking for something else, hence why he was browsing the video games section.

I don't think they should be acknowledged as a separate medium just for having different levels of interactivity.

The medium of "video games" is defined by its interactivity, while books' definition doesn't relate to interactivity at all.

I'll admit that to the consumer of VNs, this doesn't matter at all. But for producers of them, I think it's an important question in determining whether the medium will ever be a success.

All Nines

"Yes, and then said potential buyer will put it back on the shelf, because he was looking for something else, hence why he was browsing the video games section."

I'm of the opinion that he should have known what he was going to the store for; I, personally, don't go out to buy things if I don't know what I want. That's where advertising comes in, but that's hardly my problem.

"The medium of "video games" is defined by its interactivity, while books' definition doesn't relate to interactivity at all."

I think it should be a matter of format and manner of intake (you read books, you click things in video games) when it comes to deciding how to classify a work, not execution (book with interactivity is a book because you read it, video game with minimal interactivity is still a video game because it has interactivity and meets the other requirements).

And I doubt that VN's will ever be as successful as even something like anime, which itself already suffers from a stigma due to multiple slights upon it and bad creations to its name. Outside of Japan, I mean. They suffer from a certain problem (excessive sexuality), and I feel like the producers are precisely the types of people who don't care. It's not like they don't know who they want to aim at.

I feel like I'm sounding really pretentious. Am I? ._.

ClockworkUniverse

I'm of the opinion that he should have known what he was going to the store for; I, personally, don't go out to buy things if I don't know what I want. That's where advertising comes in, but that's hardly my problem.

I agree with that, but if someone comes out to the store looking to buy "a videogame," just in general, then if he sees a VN, he likely won't buy it.

(you read books, you click things in video games) 

The former describes a VN better than the latter does.

(book with interactivity is a book because you read it, video game with minimal interactivity is still a video game because it has interactivity and meets the other requirements).

But not all VNs have even the slightest bit of interactivity.

And I doubt that VN's will ever be as successful as even something like anime, which itself already suffers from a stigma due to multiple slights upon it and bad creations to its name. 

Is there a medium that hasn't ever had that problem?

I feel like I'm sounding really pretentious. Am I? ._.

Not as much as I am :P

Seriously though, my original post was just poking fun about how I debate about this at the drop of a hat. I actually didn't want to get into it.

All Nines

"I agree with that, but if someone comes out to the store looking to buy "a videogame," just in general, then if he sees a VN, he likely won't buy it."

There's probably a bunch of other games he didn't buy, as well. And I doubt something that, admittedly, is more reading than clicking is going to be more popular than more regular video games for a while, if not forevermore.

"The former describes a VN better than the latter does."

You can read in video games, too. You have to, in most. But books don't make you click things or press buttons.

"But not all VNs have even the slightest bit of interactivity."

Is this meant figuratively, or literally?

"Is there a medium that hasn't ever had that problem?"

It certainly hasn't stopped video games or TV from retaining popularity.

"Seriously though, my original post was just poking fun about how I debate about this at the drop of a hat. I actually didn't want to get into it."

Damn. For what it's worth, it was Juan who egged you on. >_>

ClockworkUniverse

>And I doubt something that, admittedly, is more reading than clicking is going to be more popular than more regular video games for a while, if not forevermore

Doesn't have to be more popular. Just something other than "so unpopular nobody buys then unless they're porn.

>You can read in video games, too. You have to, in most. But books don't make you click things or press buttons.

So kindle books are videogames?

>Is this meant figuratively, or literally?

Literally.

>It certainly hasn't stopped video games or TV from retaining popularity.

Almost did. But it had to be overcome.

>Damn. For what it's worth, it was Juan who egged you on.

I dont mind ^_^

DYRE

But basically, I find them more akin to choose your own adventure books with pictures.

Choose-Your-Own-Adventure books can also be considered games though (thus their classification as gamebooks).

ClockworkUniverse

^The ones I've seen that called themselves gamebooks included RPG-style combat. Thus, they're books adapting role-playing games.

All Nines

"Doesn't have to be more popular. Just something other than "so unpopular nobody buys then unless they're porn."

And, again, that's up to advertisers/word-of-mouth, after producers, not shelves.

"So kindle books are videogames?"

Well, the books that kindles show would still be books. But there's more to video games than just clicking; that's a big way that they differentiate themselves from (traditional) books. I have the feeling that you see what I mean, though.

"Literally."

I'm really tempted to just call that low-budget anime, then. A major focus is still pictures, disqualifying them from being books, and without interactivity, they can hardly be called games. But I still don't know if that merits Visual Novels as their own medium.

"Almost did. But it had to be overcome."

And the problems they had to overcome weren't quite as great as the flood of excessive sexuality that anime and VN's suffer from.

"I dont mind ^_^"

All right, then.

DYRE

A major focus is still pictures, disqualifying them from being books

So picture books, graphic novels, and artbooks are not books?

^The ones I've seen that called themselves gamebooks included RPG-style combat. Thus, they're books adapting role-playing games.

Supposedly, gamebook is actually the general name for all books that have the progression of the story determined by choices the reader makes throughout it.  So it includes those, but also includes the Choose Your Own Adventure series and other similar books.

ClockworkUniverse

>And, again, that's up to advertisers/word-of-mouth, after producers, not shelves

Shelves are an important part of marketing.

>But there's more to video games than just clicking; that's a big way that they differentiate themselves from (traditional) books

You just summarized why I don't consider VNs games.

>A major focus is still pictures, disqualifying them from being books

Virtually all of it is text, though. The pictures supplement it, but books can have that too.

>And the problems they had to overcome weren't quite as great as the flood of excessive sexuality that anime and VN's suffer from.

I think we disagree on the causality here. I'm of the opinion that the porn is a result of the market size, not the other way around.

All Nines

"So picture books, graphic novels, and artbooks are not books?"

Erm. Got me there, sorta. Disqualifies them from being "novels", is what I mean, of course.

Hmm. This should probably be put to rest soon. In the end, I think that VN characteristics are such that they can be utilized by multiple other media--which is to say, in works that would be classified in different ways, be they mostly some sort of "picture book", or something more like a video game, since VN's that play like regular video games also exist, of course. VN's can be a part of multiple styles of media depending on other qualities of each given work is my final stance, I guess.

"I think we disagree on the causality here. I'm of the opinion that the porn is a result of the market size, not the other way around."

I couldn't say. I don't even know if I disagree with you here, or not. But the point is, this is a problem in anime and VN's that you don't see nearly as often in video games and television, and as such anime has been stigmatized, although VN's are much more obscure. Possibly because they're more saturated with pornographic works.

ClockworkUniverse

Oh, geez, you're getting dangerously close to making me turn this into a debate on whether mediums are a thing at all, in which case, we'll be here all week.

All Nines

Oh God.

In that case, we should probably just agree to disagree, knowing that we at least have a solid understanding of each others' sides.

ClockworkUniverse

Yep ^_^

DYRE

Strictly speaking, I'm pretty sure at this point nearly all artwork is actually all done in the same medium.  Namely, digital media. >.>

Which I suppose is to say that mediums exist but probably aren't a terribly useful way to classify anything anymore.

(I know you guys don't want to keep arguing and stuff anymore but... it's kind of fun... >.>)

All Nines

DYRE

By artwork I was including audio and writing and whatnot.  The point is that most works of any sort are primarily created, distributed, and experienced digitally via computers these days.

All Nines

Ah. I see what you mean there, and this time I'll think ahead and note that video game consoles fall under "computer" in their own way, as well. But media are still separated because they have different qualities in presentation that people still consider. Depends on how we're defining media, and if we're getting into sub-media (digital --> computers --> etc; digital production --> printing --> predominance of pictures or words).

>sub-media

Someone kill me now.

ClockworkUniverse

Whoa, you guys are going way deeper than I was going to. I just meant that media are more of a shorthand than a rigidly defined set of categories.

All Nines

Hehe. ^_^;

I agree, there; it's still significant, though, what with some people not liking books and some people preferring paper copies to digital media, and certain trends permeating each medium in such a way that expectations are formed around those trends. That's all.

DYRE

^^ Well, I kind of knew that's what you meant since you've said as much before...

But I like talking about things I don't know anything about so... >.>

All Nines

^ What a coincidence! Me too.

Actually, most of my debates here have consisted of me tossing my base opinions out, weighing counterarguments, and forming a viewpoint from there. I just make it a point to be defiant, since I don't want my lack of experience in any area to show.

ClockworkUniverse

We're talking about art, here. It's not like anything's objective anyway. All perspectives are valid and no perspectives are valid.