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(nicer this time) Sexism

13

Comments

  • AHRAHR
    edited 2011-09-30 18:24:32
    What about the girl who insists that men should never hit women, but it's ok for women to hit men?

    I know someone who thinks that.

    And I know many men who dislike this very much. I don't think being in the group means you get a sudden all-knowing vision of what's going on.
  • RedEyedAbyssRedEyedAbyss
    edited 2011-09-30 18:29:34

    Then the girl is advocating exercising the women's rights at the expense of the men's, and thus the men should speak against it.

    And of course being in the group doesn't mean you know everything. But being well-informed while being still outside the group is like doing a lot of research on Sweden and having talked with a lot of Swedish people, but never actually having been there in your life. You are familiar with what it is like to live in Sweden, but you don't know what it's like to live in Sweden.

  • SotiCotoSotiCoto
    edited 2011-09-30 18:30:01
    RE-ANIMATOR
    Ok... so I'm trying to avoid going my usual route and ranting about people making things into Serious Business ...  (You remember my stance on THAT topic, right?) ... 

    Firstly...  claiming that sexism is all about the unfair / whatever representation of women is itself a sexist statement. Perhaps the word you were looking for is misogynist... but I dunno. 
    Honestly.... sexism is just discrimination based on sex (I prefer the word "gender", but that would just rile all the sophists up) ... 

    And the funny thing is this: men and women are different. 
    Yeah.
    Really. 

    Men do some things women don't. Women do some things men don't.  Men are better at some things than women. Women are better at some things than men. 
    And here it gets really awkward... Some women are better at things that men are normally better at. Some men are better at things that women are normally better at.  
    There are TRENDS for either side... but neither is absolute. 


    But I'd say the very worst aspect of all this anti-sexism nonsense is the bizarre desire to try and make everything completely 50/50 neutral... which is frankly unrealistic. 
    Well.... that and the polar opposite. The classic stance of promoting the "culture" of every formerly oppressed section of society like it really needs the bells and whistles. 



    Let stuff happen. 
    Thas all that is really needed. 
    Accept men will be men, women will be women, hermaphrodites will be hermaphrodites, futanari will be futanari, asexed will be asexed.... and..... um..... well yeah. Just let stuff play out the way it plays out and don't be so FUCKING STUPID as to get offended because people of a different gender persuasion or whatever perceive / react differently.   -_-;

    k? 



    ^^ I punch women affectionately. ^_^  ... And generally only when they're ok with that sort of thing.   
  • MoeDantesMoeDantes
    no longer cuddly, but still Edmond
    .. I think SotiCoto wins the thread.
  • CounterclockCounterclock
    Belief
    If getting banned is winning the thread, then I guess all I need to do is get banned?
  • SchitzoSchitzo
    They're somethin' else.
    http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/discussion.php?id=89m41s8tt5aet9ycwwvpypwq

    How sexist is this YKKTW, guys?
  • MoeDantesMoeDantes
    no longer cuddly, but still Edmond
    Uhhh what did SotiCoto say that was ban-worthy?
  • Wicked223Wicked223
    We Played Some Open Chords and Rejoiced, For the Earth Had Circled the Sun Yet Another Year
    Every single post he's ever made.
  • ForzareForzare
    edited 2011-09-30 23:01:32
    Till shade is gone, till water is gone, into the Shadow with teeth bared, screaming defiance with the last breath, to spit in Sightblinder’s eye on the last Day.
    ^^ Just about every post.

    wicked, y u ninja me so early
  • ViviVivi
    $80+ per session
  • ForzareForzare
    Till shade is gone, till water is gone, into the Shadow with teeth bared, screaming defiance with the last breath, to spit in Sightblinder’s eye on the last Day.
    Oh hey, welcome back Vivi.
  • NovaNova
    If you must eat a phoenix, boil it, do not roast it. This only encourages their mischievous habits.
    Many many things.

    Most of which were really dumb. Yes, including his above post. Let me see...

    The complain isn't that men are better at some things than women and vice-versa. Although even that's a general trend, not a rule, and you'll find men that are better at things women are generally better at than men, and women that are better at things men are generally better at than women.

    The complaint is that they are not being treated as equal. Yes, men can often do more hard labour than women; but, on the other hand, women can do hard labour just the same.

    But then, even that's not always what the complaint is about. Rather, the complaint is often that women are being shoved in roles- e.g. housewives, nurses, and the like- while men are being shoved into other roles- e.g. executives of large businesses, front-line combatants. And then there are the instinctive notions people have- like "Oh no, he hit a woman" which is sexist because why is it especially bad if someone hits a woman, when it's not treated as badly if they hit a man?

    Things like that are what constitutes sexism- basing decisions on gender and the like.
  • StormtroperStormtroper
    I'd say this is tamer than usual for him.

    I don't know enough about Touhou, but from what I've seen it's one of
    those shows games where it's all cute girls to appeal to men. That's a whole
    'nother can of worm.

    The creator can't draw cute girls if his life depended on it, though.
  • MadassAlexMadassAlex
    One foot in front of the other, every day.
    I think it bears considering that not all feminists agree on what is or is not sexist. For me, the most important question to ask in reality or media is whether females have personal agency, or in case of media that predates strong gender equality, whether females want personal agency.

    A cleaning maid in a noble's household can be a strong female character, even if she never outwardly rebels and is generally obedient; the most important factor is whether her own feelings, desires and opinions are explored as a human being.
  • MalkavianMalkavian
    MORONS! I'VE GOT MORONS ON MY PAYROLL!
    ^Exactly. It's not about if a female does or doesn't do something or has something done to her. It's how the female herself is treated.

    It's all about context.

    Schitzo: The fact that the YKTTW uses the popularity of Yanderes among males is telling.
  • NovaNova
    If you must eat a phoenix, boil it, do not roast it. This only encourages their mischievous habits.
    It's all about context, but there are a lot of things that send up danger flags- although in and of itself, very few things are outright sexist even when given context.
  • MalkavianMalkavian
    MORONS! I'VE GOT MORONS ON MY PAYROLL!
    It's why I hate the Bechdel test, or rather how people use it. It's a short three-step rule that's actually quite easy to follow and people treat it like a 'NOT SEXIST' stamp.

    The point of the Bechdel test is to point out how many things FAIL IT
  • DonZabuDonZabu
    >The point of the Bechdel test is to point out how many things FAIL IT

    For what conclusion, though, if not "the ones that don't pass are sexist", and by extension, "the ones that do pass aren't"?
  • MalkavianMalkavian
    edited 2011-10-01 02:09:23
    MORONS! I'VE GOT MORONS ON MY PAYROLL!
    The test basically implies the systemic treatment of women in relation to males rather than as people in their own right.
  • DYREDYRE

    For what conclusion, though, if not "the ones that don't pass are sexist", and by extension, "the ones that do pass aren't"?

    That is not a logical conclusion of "the ones that don't pass are sexist".  In any case, the test does not show that a particular work is or isn't sexist, it only exists to highlight the sexism across media in general.  That is, if our media were not sexist at all, you certainly wouldn't expect such a large percentage of works to fail the test.  Still, a work that does fail the test isn't automatically sexist, and certainly one that passes isn't automatically not.


  • DonZabuDonZabu
    edited 2011-10-01 02:28:23
    >Still, a work that does fail the test isn't automatically sexist, and certainly one that passes isn't automatically not.

    So a work can fail the test and still not be sexist per se, but still serve to highlight sexism in media? That is, a work doesn't have to be sexist to represent sexism as a whole?

    And likewise, if a work is indeed sexist to its core, but still passes the test, it still represents the "not sexist" sample?

    I'm sorry, I just don't think the Bechdel test should be used as a metric for overall sexism. Too much grey area in between the samples it creates.
  • MalkavianMalkavian
    MORONS! I'VE GOT MORONS ON MY PAYROLL!
    So a work can fail the test and still not be sexist per se, but still
    serve to highlight sexism in media? That is, a work doesn't have to be
    sexist to represent sexism as a whole?

    Yes. Super Mario Brothers isn't particularly sexist, but you're still a brave strong man saving the helpless girl in pink who can't do shit for herself.
  • DonZabuDonZabu
    So what makes it not sexist if that is indeed what the game's about?
  • ViviVivi
    $80+ per session
    What about Super Princess Peach and Super Paper Mario and Super Smash Bros...
  • MalkavianMalkavian
    edited 2011-10-01 02:40:27
    MORONS! I'VE GOT MORONS ON MY PAYROLL!
    ^^A man saving a woman isn't inherently sexist. What is sexist is how many stories there of that happening and so few of the reverse.

    ^I'm not sure bringing up the game where Princess Peach has periods to get super powers is all that great a counterpoint.

    and I'm speaking about the main game line in any case.
  • DYREDYRE
    edited 2011-10-01 02:40:25

    Because the game isn't making any implicit or explicit statement that, say, Mario is saving the princess because he's a man and she's a woman, and such.  Having a man save a woman in a story isn't sexist, but when the amount of stories about men saving women outnumbers stories about the inverse a hundred to one, it's a sign of sexism within the culture, even if not necessarily in any particular work.

    EDIT: Ninja'd.

  • MoeDantesMoeDantes
    no longer cuddly, but still Edmond
    Kind of off-subject but it surprises me that the Bechdel Test even exists and so many works fail it. Is it really so hard to write women?
  • DonZabuDonZabu
    ^^ So do we then blame the work (or, more accurately, the trend), or the society that begat it?
  • MalkavianMalkavian
    edited 2011-10-01 02:48:10
    MORONS! I'VE GOT MORONS ON MY PAYROLL!
    ^^No. It's not. Not any harder than men.

    It's not about women being hard to write. It's what they're written to be more often than not.

    ^Like many systemic problems blame isn't the important thing. The important thing is working to change it.
  • NovaNova
    If you must eat a phoenix, boil it, do not roast it. This only encourages their mischievous habits.
    It's not that it's so hard to write women. It's that notions like this one are very ingrained into our culture, to the extent that most people don't even notice they're doing it.
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