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The TVT Kingdom Hearts thread

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Comments

  • NovaNova
    If you must eat a phoenix, boil it, do not roast it. This only encourages their mischievous habits.
    I can understand that complaint in regard to RE:Coded (A game I like, but it didn't really add anything to the series that could not have been added another way) and maybe 358/2 Days (Although I disagree, but I like it, so I'm biased).

    I don't think it's a very valid complaint about Chain of Memories (Not a spinoff- it's the link between 1 and 2, and tells a lot of what happens to the characters, exploring a lot of things to do with them) and Birth By Sleep (The prequel, explaining a lot of the how behind the plot and setting up the plot for KH3).

    I think those are the only spinoffs though.
  • MillerCrossMillerCross
    You can change. You can.
    I never said anything about Chains of Memories, which I think it's actually the best game in the franchise. And I wouldn't really call it a spin off (It sets up the plot for KH II and you can't understand why Sora is in there and why doesn't he remember a full year of his life. Not to mention the Riku subplot and all that)

    Birth By Sleep, I haven't played, so I can't really complain beyond the fact that it follows the "Put it in a different console" policy which I find annoying, specially as it leads to ports, which are both expensive and take too long for a game that is still the same that the game you could have gotten in its original version.

    No, my problem is with 358/2's snail pace, gameplay, boring story and the fact that it's just there cause people liked Roxas and doesn't contribute anything to Sora's storyline. I'd forgive the last thing if Roxas (Or the Organization, for that matter) was interesting, but blugh blugh, it was so dull and...just unnecessary. That was the biggest problem for me. when I picked up KH II, I knew I was getting a plot following the actions I had seen before and I knew there was a purpose to everything (Except Roxas, funnily enough)

    but when I picked up this game, I just went "Why am I doing this?" "Why am I picking up hearts for the organization?" "Why am I playing this instead of seeing Roxas' story?"

    Hell, I think that 358/2 days would have been far better if it had been a VN. The story is probably the only interesting thing and even then, said story is not necessary for your enjoyment of the series.

    So, yeah, if I were SE's CEO, I'd probably axe the project in the name of either rerouting resources to more worthwhile endeavors, or would have made a multiconsole game. 

    This was all important knowledge that has made your lives better
  • NovaNova
    If you must eat a phoenix, boil it, do not roast it. This only encourages their mischievous habits.
    No, my problem is with 358/2's snail pace, gameplay, boring story and the fact that it's just there cause people liked Roxas and doesn't contribute anything to Sora's storyline. I'd forgive the last thing if Roxas (Or the Organization, for that matter) was interesting, but blugh blugh, it was so dull and...just unnecessary.

    Like I said, I disagree, but okay. Roxas and Xion are both some of the people Sora is meant to be 'saving' in Kingdom Hearts 3.

    I guess I will just have to wait until after that game to see if Roxas' story has any impact beyond the one game.

    (There is a manga covering Roxas and Xion though, so that might be more up your alley.)
  • MillerCrossMillerCross
    You can change. You can.
    I guess I will just have to wait until after that game to see if Roxas' story has any impact beyond the one game.

    I don't think that'd justify it. Xion being more important would justify it, though. But seriously, do you need to know anything else about Roxas except that he's a rogue Nobody who wields the Keyblade and was formed after Sora became a heartless? I don't really think so. And the series has not yet given me a reason to change that belief.

    (There is a manga covering Roxas and Xion though, so that might be more up your alley.)

    I'd do it if the series interested me again (Which is part of the reason I really dislike this games, as they have turned me off the franchise as a whole)
  • NovaNova
    If you must eat a phoenix, boil it, do not roast it. This only encourages their mischievous habits.
    I don't think that'd justify it. Xion being more important would justify it, though. But seriously, do you need to know anything else about Roxas except that he's a rogue Nobody who wields the Keyblade and was formed after Sora became a heartless? I don't really think so. And the series has not yet given me a reason to change that belief.

    There are hints that Roxas is connected to Ventus, and by extension also to Vanitas. He is also the only proper Nobody to express emotion so far.
  • ViviVivi
    $80+ per session
    And maybe Axel. And some debate Saix.
  • MillerCrossMillerCross
    You can change. You can.
    Welp, is this info exclusively in 358/2 days or is it in BbS?

    If the first, then it's understandable for the game to exist. If it is the second, then I don't see the point of the game. 
  • NovaNova
    If you must eat a phoenix, boil it, do not roast it. This only encourages their mischievous habits.
    It's in 358/2 Days. Specifically, all the scenes with Roxas and Axel/Xion on the clock tower, and pretty much every scene with Roxas is emphasising his connection with Ventus (They're kind of identical).
  • MillerCrossMillerCross
    You can change. You can.
    > Exclusively

    That part is important to my argument.
  • NovaNova
    edited 2011-08-29 22:33:04
    If you must eat a phoenix, boil it, do not roast it. This only encourages their mischievous habits.
    Absolutely none of this was shown in Birth By Sleep. Sora's connection to Ventus was shown, but nothing about Roxas' connection to them.
  • MillerCrossMillerCross
    You can change. You can.
    Uh huh. But we know about Sora and Roxas' connection because of KH II. The implication comes from BbS.

    Notice that in that sentence, the words 358, 2, days, or slash weren't mentioned 
  • NovaNova
    edited 2011-08-29 22:54:59
    If you must eat a phoenix, boil it, do not roast it. This only encourages their mischievous habits.
    The connection between (Sora, Ventus) and (Roxas, Ventus) is different though. The implication in Birth By Sleep is that Ventus' Heart is inside Sora, while Ventus' Body is in the Chamber of Repose. Come 358/2 Days, though, it's being hinted at that people are seeing Ventus when they look at Roxas- i.e. he has traces of Ventus' Heart, Body and possibly Soul- the three components that makes up a person in Kingdom Hearts.

    Despite the fact that both Ventus' Soul and Ventus' Body are in the Chamber of Repose.
  • MillerCrossMillerCross
    You can change. You can.
    ...

    dear god that sentence doesn't make sense no matter how much i re read it
  • ViviVivi
    $80+ per session
    I understood all of it.
  • MillerCrossMillerCross
    You can change. You can.
    welp, you played the games. I've had to google the following terms

    > Chamber of Repose
    > Ventus
    > Vanitas
    > Heart and Soul (KH)

    To be fair, it's been a long time since I've played the games, so. 
  • NovaNova
    If you must eat a phoenix, boil it, do not roast it. This only encourages their mischievous habits.
    It does make more sense in context.

    There are three factors that make up a person in Kingdom Hearts:

    Body- the physical form of a person.

    Soul- essentially, I guess, higher brain functions and rationality. Your Mind, in other words.

    Heart- your emotions and more subconscious reactions to everything.

    Heartless, despite the name, are not actually Heartless- they are the Hearts of people.

    Nobodies are what are left behind of this- the Heart is gone, so the person normally dies, but in cases where the person has an exceptionally strong will, the Soul can take possession over the Body. This is how a Nobody is created.

    Ventus has a connection to Sora. I'm not quite sure of the details, but there were Keyblade shenanigans, and Ventus split into two beings; Ventus and Vanitas, Ventus and his negative emotions, respectively. At the end of Birth By Sleep, Vanitas, i.e. Ventus' negative emotions, is absorbed back into Ventus, but... I just like to say 'keyblade shenanigans happened' or 'DARKNESS happened', and Ventus' Heart was seperated from his Body, sending him into a comatose state.

    His Heart flew into Sora. His Body collapsed into a comatose state, and Aqua took it back to the Chamber of Repose to be safe.

    So Sora has been running around with two hearts inside of him- his own and Ventus'.

    When Roxas, Sora's Nobody (i.e. somebody who was created when Sora's Heart was messed with) was created, a connection with Ventus was opened up between them too. This connection is different to Ventus' and Sora's connection, though, due to Roxas being a being with no Heart, and his Body and Soul being different to that of his original form.
  • MadassAlexMadassAlex
    One foot in front of the other, every day.
    The fact that this discussion is happening means something has gone horribly wrong with KH.

    Convoluted story + too many platforms + an excess of lore = this thread.
  • NovaNova
    If you must eat a phoenix, boil it, do not roast it. This only encourages their mischievous habits.
    Everybody who keeps up with the game understands it though.
  • MadassAlexMadassAlex
    One foot in front of the other, every day.
    How many people have all those platforms at their disposal, though?
  • MalkavianMalkavian
    MORONS! I'VE GOT MORONS ON MY PAYROLL!
    But like we said, it's really difficult to do so, and it feels way too circuitous and has too much superfluous nonsense.
  • MillerCrossMillerCross
    edited 2011-08-29 23:14:03
    You can change. You can.
    I do think that the story is needlessly convoluted for a simple crossover. Not to mention that I think the scripting has lost that sense of fun the first game had. But those don't bother me.

    ^Agreed. So much.
  • MalkavianMalkavian
    MORONS! I'VE GOT MORONS ON MY PAYROLL!
    I miss simplicity in game stories. Complex is not the same as intelligent.

    We should go back to 'you have to shoot the thing'.
  • NovaNova
    If you must eat a phoenix, boil it, do not roast it. This only encourages their mischievous habits.
    How many people have all those platforms at their disposal, though?

    -shrug-

    That's not a problem with the series itself, that's a problem with the marketing of it.

    But like we said, it's really difficult to do so, and it feels way too circuitous and has too much superfluous nonsense.

    Not particularly. Nothing particularly complicated has popped up yet. Would you like to point at something that you consider superfluous/overly complicated?
  • MalkavianMalkavian
    MORONS! I'VE GOT MORONS ON MY PAYROLL!
    Your entire previous post.
  • MadassAlexMadassAlex
    edited 2011-08-29 23:19:27
    One foot in front of the other, every day.
    ^^^ I wouldn't go that far, but I'd argue in favour of simplifying stories in many cases.

    ^^ But a platform has to be chosen before the game is developed. So the game designers go into the development phase knowing how fractured it's going to be, ergo making it their responsibility to ensure damage control.
  • MalkavianMalkavian
    MORONS! I'VE GOT MORONS ON MY PAYROLL!
    I was being humorously hyperbolic.
  • MadassAlexMadassAlex
    One foot in front of the other, every day.
    The "I wouldn't go that far" was more to do with the fact that I share your implicit position, but I was being serious in tone so serious post.
  • MillerCrossMillerCross
    You can change. You can.
    I feel that the concept of Souls was needlessly complicated and just brings another faction into the whole fray. A faction that is just as bad as the heartless except different cause they're white. The rest is pretty much the same. Except for the possibly intelligent ones.

    That's not a problem with the series itself, that's a problem with the marketing of it.

    It is a problem with the series. The marketing of it is a characteristic of the series. As such, this is a problem of the series. It's just that it's a Doylist problem rather than a Watsonian one.
  • NovaNova
    If you must eat a phoenix, boil it, do not roast it. This only encourages their mischievous habits.
    Your entire previous post.

    Is not particularly difficult to understand at all.

    But a platform has to be chosen before the game is developed. So the game designers go into the development phase knowing how fractured it's going to be, ergo making it their responsibility to ensure damage control. 

    May I ask what 'fracture' you're talking about? I mean, the story of it is going to be the same no matter the platform.
  • MalkavianMalkavian
    edited 2011-08-29 23:24:20
    MORONS! I'VE GOT MORONS ON MY PAYROLL!
    Also, the fact the games don't work narratively as stand alones since 2 has been a problem.

    ^if you insist, but quite frankly it looks like homework to me.
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