Religion

Gelzo

It's been a long time since I seriously participated in this sort of discussion.

Let's see where this goes.

Counterclock

What about it?

MillerCross

what's religion

MadassAlex

The Crusades are pretty fun history.

Malkavian

^^The opiate of the masses.

MoeDantes

what's religion

Something that nerds, idiots and sci-fi writers like to claim are the cause of all mankind's problems. Ironically these people often form dogmas of their own.

Counterclock

And the shit-storm is underway, Here we have Mr. Moe with a strawman, how will the other-side counter?

MadassAlex

I feel that countering a common extreme with the opposite extremity is just as bad as the original extreme.

But I'll just counter with a two-strike Zwerchhau combo.

Gelzo

Okay, looks like I'm going to have to get the ball rolling. I felt like sharing my experiences, anyway.

Yeah, religion bugs me. Partly because it's something a lot of people take stock in that I don't see as logically defensible. Another part of that is the sort of effect that it has on social interactions. The town I grew up in was pretty damn churchy, and there were a number of families that weren't very excited about their kid associating with this other kid that didn't go to church. I'm not really bitter about it, but it's still kind of a dumb situation. There's not really a secular alternative to churches, but I guess it'd be a dumb idea anyway. Some other things that bug me... From what I see, religion does a pretty good job of appealing to people's emotions and social needs, and that's sort of a disturbing method of spreading a belief system. Another thing about it is that it's so hard to talk about without people getting worked up about it.

So a little recently I found out that two of my friends with religious families decided they didn't believe in a god anymore, and I'm pretty happy about that. But now one of them is probably in a weird position since I don't know if his parents know, and they're the type to care about it and he's the type to not tell them about it.

Bee

Logically defensible or not, I owe most of my not being a complete prick to when I started taking my faith seriously several years ago, as well as the peace I've found with the things that steered me toward being said prick in the first place.

The biggest problem I can find with religions on the whole is when they become insular, disrespectful, and closed-minded.  Needless to say though, this is hardly unique to religion, and I've met about as many atheists who were just as bad.

ClockworkUniverse

Aw, fuck, not another religion thread.

Forzare

I have a hard time seeing this thread going anywhere except straight down.

Bee

You know what?  Yeah.  Let's not turn this into OTC.




EDIT: I got reminded of that because we read that exact Gospel today in mass  :P

Wicked223

I can't help but think most of the prophecies regarding religion threads are a tad self-fulfilling.

MillerCross

Yeah, pretty much.

The problem with religion discussions by now is how many people go out of their way at crying doom rather than just, you know, discussing.

Yes, we had a really rough patch once when it came down to it, but if we are civil about it, argue our points without going out of our way to berate each other, it will go fine.

RedEyedAbyss

"The biggest problem I can find with religions on the whole is when they become insular, disrespectful, and closed-minded. Needless to say though, this is hardly unique to religion, and I've met about as many atheists who were just as bad."

Pretty much. That's why attributing negative acts to faith or a lack thereof is a false, strawman position.

Gelzo

I have more faith in the current user base to discuss this with maturity than... certain user bases on different sites or in different times.

So Bee, would you say keeping your faith is more or less key to your remaining a good person?

Forzare

I have more faith in the current user base to discuss this with maturity
than... certain user bases on different sites or in different times.

That's true.

I have decided to be cautiously optimistic about this thread.

As for my view on religion:  I don't believe in God, but I don't mind if other people do.  If it makes someone happy, good on them.  But if it's abused, or if the person thinks that religion is the only thing keeping someone from becoming a terrible person, that's when I start having a problem with it.

vandro

God or not, people do need guidance, in a weirdly cynical opinion of mine, most people are not very bright, they can't all be enlightened, dogmas do just fine in keeping them in check, whether I consider the different dogmas good or bad, it's a case by case basis.

Gelzo

I'm reading that as "some people are stupid and need to be told what to do". I'm hoping I'm missing the mark, because that opinion has implications I'm not enthusiastic about.

vandro

some people? Almost each and everyone of us is a moron. I include myself in the moron group, btw.

Gelzo

Well if that's true, then you have the problem of the dumb leading the dumb.

Counterclock

Rather to look up and come to solutions then to look down and come to conclusions.

Gelzo

Please explain your reasoning rather than giving us clever platitudes.

vandro

Fair enough, Gelzo, you are quite correct, the dumb lead the dumb, the only difference is that leaders have charisma.

About conclusions and solutions.

The former: Everyone is a moron.

The latter: People do have room to improve. So what I try to do is to be a good example of a person.

Beholderess

Religion is  here because quite a lot of people need it. it is not a coincidence that every single society that ever evolved has one.  Note that religion as a social construct for fulfilling need and keeping society together has nothing to do with whether any particular religion happens to be  correct. Which it might. Or might not.

Personally, this one has no problem with religion as long as it is treated as a subjective thing it is. While this one is irreligious, she has quite a lot of irrational beliefs of her own - why shouldn't other people be allowed the same courtesy? 

What this one does have a problem with is  expecting other people to behave in accordance with one's religion, or even accept it's premises as true to begin with. Religion is quite fine as a personal thing, but not as a public policy.

And, of course, this one still has no proof that religious person would not kill her if they think their god wishes it. But oh well, guess this one should just learn to live with it.

Anyway, that does not mean that this one hates religion, much less religious people. Everyone deserves respect, and if one's beliefs cause one to mistreat  people, then those beliefs - religious or not - are troublesome. So atheists who ridicule theists for no other basis than being theists are not in any way better.

This  one is rather...passionate...on the topic of religion, and sincerely hopes that she does not sound disrespectful  or offensive. 

What this one believes in is a matter between her and God if he/she/it exists. Suffice  to say that for this one, the question of whether God exists is useless. She prefers to think that it does, but what does it change? So far this one sees no way of recognising divine being without resorting to circular logic.

Gelzo

I'm very tempted to take objection to the use of the word "need" in that first sentence, but I'll admit to not knowing enough about psychology to be sure. In any case I'm certain that even if that were true, a not insignificant number of people would be better off without faith yet are coerced into it.

I'm also not sure I understand why people willingly hold onto beliefs they admit are irrational. If I had a belief that I came to conclude was irrational, I would abandon it. Not to say I'm not irrational in some ways, I just don't know in what way I'm irrational yet.

Beholderess

a not insignificant number of people would be better off without faith yet are coerced into it.

That, unfortunately, is true, and yes, it  is a problem

I'm also not sure I understand why people willingly hold onto beliefs
they admit are irrational. If I had a belief that I came to conclude was
irrational, I would abandon it.

This one cannot speak for everyone. But for this one, it is because  without irrational beliefs she would be left without  anything at all. They are...foundation, if you will...upon which more  rational constructs stand. For example, quite a lot  of this one's current ideals are rooted in her concept of justice, and justified with it - but just how can she justify that getting exactly what  one does to others is just  i the  first place? The same  with her idea of fairness, and equality.

Of course, there are probably some people who are able to justify that. But even they would have to use some sort of premise for justification. No matter how many "levels" of justification are there, the bottom one is taken as axiom.

Also,  there are some  beliefs this one holds  simply because she  likes it. But these are not "serious" - more a  play at belief than anything else.

Gelzo

I'm not sure I follow what you're saying about justice, could you give a specific example of a belief you have that you don't think you have a logical justification for?

My axiom is that my senses generally provide accurate information. I figure it works well enough, and if it turns out to be false, then there's nothing I can do about it and no way I can know with my current set of information.

Counterclock

To me, at least personally, Religion as a personal belief and Religion as an organized rally are two different things entirely.

I have never had the experience of meeting someone who has subscribed to the line of thinking that Religion as a personal thing is something worth imposing onto others.

Neither have I had the experience of meeting the latter either, but there are plenty of people willing to testify of organized religions that try to impose their belief systems onto others, regardless of that person's feelings or beliefs.

Gelzo

You've never had Mormons at your door?