ALL OF ENGLAND IS FIGHTING A WAR AGAINST RIOTERS

IanExMachina

No, no it is just London.

The rest of the country is doing ok (Well birmingham is having a little trouble but not as much, and is getting little media coverage.)

Also the idiots assuming all the poor/blacks/whatever are the entire fault for this rather than the unique blend of dicks who are just out for criminal intent.

Hatter

Well, who's rioting?

IanExMachina

There doesn't appear to be any specific group, apart from people who want to loot and set stuff on fire.

(Basically anyone who was peacefully gathering in related protests has gone to hide by now.)

Hatter

Then it's time for some good old-fashioned police brutality.

IanExMachina

Yeah...

That would be one of the worst ideas I can think of, seeing as the reason there was any protest  to start with was about policing methods.

The best way now is limit damage (as it is nowhere near as terrible as made out to be.) and arrest those after whilst trying to not stir extra shit up.

Hatter

I know what started the riots. All I'm saying is that someone who thinks that the proper response to such an event is to burn shit and steal things needs a boot on their neck.

Get the people who want peace off the streets and back in their homes, then tear gas them and shoot the looters who respond with lethal force.

It's the police's job to keep the peace. That means using force.

IanExMachina

Yeah we aren't the US, there would be a massive backlash entirely if the police used lethal force.

Hatter

You mean the UK doesn't allow lethal force in self defense?

How uncivilized.

IanExMachina

The idea of lethal force being civilised is ludicrous.

The civilised UK policeforce (ish) is arresting those causing trouble, allowing them to go through the CJS. Certainly more civilised than shooting them.

ninjaclown

Is it strange that I don't find this a surprise at all? London youth just seem to be angry, angry people in general.

IanExMachina

Yeah, the poorest youths in the poorest areas I'm sure make up the majority of the rioters.

Which says a lot about social policy.

Hatter

There's nothing more barbaric than ceding control of your own life to the violent criminal.

And didn't you already say that the poor weren't at fault? 

IanExMachina

I'm not blaming all of the 'poor' I'm pointing out the social policy failures that have allowed those with very little to have very little to lose in some cases.

Not to mention as all the Media is saying, a lot of career criminals are having 'fun' out there.

Not using lethal force =/= ceding control to someone else.

Ghilz

So all of this because a drug dealer got shot? 

I can think of better reasons to riot.

glennmagusharvey

Such as these:
* Twilight got a sequel.
* Stellvia didn't get a sequel.
* Obama's fake birth certificate is actually Australian in origin, foiling my scheme to make fake Kenyan birth certificates for profit.

Hatter

Not using lethal force to protect yourself is absolutely ceding control of your life. Violence in the defense of one's own life is always justifiable if lethal force has already been brought against it, or said force has been threatened. To believe otherwise is a pacifist fantasy that has no place in the real world.

And the criminal behavior on display in London at the moment is inexcusable. You may believe that they are doing it because they feel poor and disenfranchised, but that doesn't excuse vandalism, arson and assault. 

IanExMachina

Nooo.

There were some gatherings due to complicated reasons regarding Duggan's death. ( HugeTensions in area, misinformation etc etc).

The gatherings have basically been hijacked and are now just riots unrelated to Duggan's death.

ninjaclown

Doesn't matter, these people are looking for any reason to riot. Probably the result of years of simmering rage beneath the surface.

IanExMachina

Well I completely disagree with you Hatter and we are not going to convince each other otherwise on the issue I'd bet.

Oh no, I don't think those people doing stuff should be excused, they should be taken through the CJS, however social policy would be able to lessen the reason for such actions.

Hatter

And what kind of social policies can completely erase crime? I'm sure everyone across the globe would be very eager to hear the cure for thuggery.

IanExMachina

I never said erase, I said lessen.

As if social 'pressure' as it were, was lessened, there may have never been enough to actually trigger the riots.

Hatter

So the police shouldn't have attempted to combat drug dealing and illegal arms dealing in the area. I see.

EDIT: Oh, wow. I found out that one of the officials has the same first name as me, and looks a lot like me. Weird.

TheConductor

Violence will only lead to more violence.

Society needs to work together to reduce crime by improving people's lives.

Hatter

Violence doesn't lead to more violence when the other dude is dead. I hate it when people quote MLK and Gandhi out of context. Gandhi especially. That man was a prick.

glennmagusharvey

Violence can lead to temporary cessation of violence, but cannot lead to permanent cessation, barring outright death.

For permanent solutions that don't involve death, you need tools other than violence.

IanExMachina

@Hatter

I'm not sure how you got 

>So the police shouldn't have attempted to combat drug dealing and illegal arms dealing in the area. I see.

From my posts at all.

Alkthash

Violence doesn't lead to more violence when the other dude is dead.

Yeah, because that other dude exists in a vacuum and doesn't have any friends or family who would be mad that he was killed.

Hatter

That's why you make rules about killing him, and you only kill him if he was trying to kill you first. If his friends and family get mad, let them. But if they break the law and try to kill you, you kill them first.

This is basic rule of law stuff. If someone is being violent and there's no other way to stop him, you have to use violence. Violent men don't respond to kind words.

TheConductor

Alkthash

Well in the riot situation, they do have nonlethal ways to stop people. So your suggestion to just start shooting them doesn't hold water under your own caveat.

Hatter

I said that they should teargas them and shoot the ones who try to use lethal force against the police. I never said that they should just shoot the rioters.