Americans completely losing their shit about cousin intermarriage

Hatter

We have taboos for a reason. Incest leads to all sorts of problems, and not just birth defects. If it were just birth defects, I'd be opposed to people older than 35 having children, or people with certain genetic defects bumping uglies. No, incest is bad because you're mixing two areas - familial relations and sexual relations - that aren't meant to be mixed. Unconditional love and romantic love are two different animals, and if you've got a sexual relationship with someone who you literally couldn't stop loving even if you wanted to, then you're in a disturbing quagmire of deviant sex. Also, if the person is a father or a mother or an uncle or whatever, then you've got an asymmetrical power balance, which is definitely not conducive to a healthy relationship.

IanExMachina

Different cultures different morals.

Hatter

Human nature remains the same. Our basic values don't change, even if we value them in different ways.

Counterclock

Actually, on the note of things that are "taboo" I'd say it's more like "We have taboos for reasons(not all of them are good) but Incest actually has a list of reasons why it's considered unhealthy"

Hatter

Taboos may not always have good reasons, but they always have reasons. The taboo against homosexual intercourse was because of the ease with which diseases are passed between partners, and because the tribe wouldn't produce as many children. The taboo against premarital sex was for similar reasons. The taboo against pork products in the Muslim and Jewish world is because pigs carried loads of diseases.

There's a reason for pretty much everything with regards to culture. 

IanExMachina

>Human nature remains the same. Our basic values don't change, even if we value them in different ways.

Sorry I'm really not with it today, can you clarify this please, maybe with an example?

Hatter

Alright, so here it goes. This is for regular, non-psychopathic, non-Objectivist people.

Everyone values justice, even if they believe that different things are just.

Everyone values human life, which is why people always have to justify killing someone. 

Everyone values faith, even if they don't believe in a higher power.

Everyone values order, even if they don't like being told what to do.

Tnu1138

I'd have to disagree Justice is too meaningless to have an inherent value, Faith is not an inherently valuable thing I've considred converting to Nihilism myself.  order is not valuable and I have a certain distrust of it as many horrible things can be done in the name of "order". Human life? Well Ipersonally don't see humans as anything more then animals. It's a simple truth lets' face it if we were anything but animals we wouldnt be classed as such.

Hatter

Yeah, I'm talking about regular people, not Objectivists, Nihilists, Satanists or Episcopalians. It's only through training or justifications that we escape these values.

Look at it this way: Tnu, if I gave you a knife and ordered you to stab someone in the face, and you knew that you wouldn't get in trouble, would you do it?

Tnu1138

Frankly? no simply because you orderedmeto.

Hatter

Let's say you were given the opportunity to kill someone, and you knew you'd never get caught. Would you do it?

Iaculus

Yeah, I get that incest can screw up your family dynamics, but that depends on you being particularly close to that branch of the family, no? Second cousins, for instance, are people who share your great-grandparents. How often do you keep in contact with them? After a certain point, it becomes equivalent to dating the son or daughter of a family friend, if even that.

And I still don't get why America is so uniquely severe in its opposition to cousin marriage. There is a degree of universal taboo to the concept, yes, but there are only a very few places in the world that go quite so far with it. And if it's a 'different strokes for different folks' thing, then what in particular about the American culture would make it so unusually intolerant of it?

Counterclock

^^ Some people would say yes, Some would say no.

vandro

Question, does the person deserve to die, Hatter?

Nyarly

Everyone values justice, even if they believe that different things are
just.

"Justice" is a nice dream, but ultimately only an unrealistic concept.

Everyone values human life, which is why people always have to justify
killing someone.

This is just hypocritical and nothing else (and a major factor, why I have slight misanthropic tendencies).

vandro

I disagree that it is just a nice dream, Nyarly, becuase the inherent unreal aspect of justice is the reason we strive for it.

Tnu1138

Maybe if I had a reason. Moral codes dontmean much to me except my own.

Vorpy

Also, if the person is a father or a mother or an uncle or whatever,
then you've got an asymmetrical power balance, which is definitely not
conducive to a healthy relationship.

Yes, incest is bad in some cases when it comes to serious long-term relationships, but what if you are just a forever alone virgin at a family gathering and a cousin offers to have sex with you?

Hatter

If it's a cousin you'll never see again and you use protection, then alright. Whatever.

Chagen

I'd just decline the offer.

Forzare

Parent/Offspring incest is definitely bad.  Power balance and all that.  And birth defects.  Sibling incest is... not quite as bad, but you still have the whole weird family dynamic and birth defects problems.  So, still bad.

But cousins are okay, because I'm pretty sure the risk of cousin incest producing defective kids is either the same as or only slightly higher than (can't remember which) two completely unrelated people's offspring.  And you aren't in contact with cousins nearly as much as with siblings, and in a lot of cases, significantly less than your your friends.  So the whole "unconditional family love"/whatever thing isn't an issue either.

Second cousins and past?  Come on, you're barely even related.

Vorpy

What if your cousin is a forever alone virgin and they beg you to have sex with them?

TheConductor

Do it.

Hatter

If I don't know them well enough to ever see them again, then I don't know them well enough to have sex with them.

Alkthash

Yeah I'm with Fozare on this one. Hell depending on how close parts of your family live to each other, developing a familial relationship with a first cousin isn't guaranteed.