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American's Who Cling To The Constitution As If It Was Some Be All, End All, Super Document

TheConductorTheConductor
edited 2011-05-22 04:15:18 in General
I mean the Constitution IS a good thing, it's how America laid out what they wanted to do differently from Britain and that's good. 

However, you get people who are so obsessed with it they think it's the best thing ever and that it needs to be followed to the letter.

EXCEPT; correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't it have amendments to it? Isn't the whole point that it can get changed to reflect modern times?

I mean, I remember when Obama was doing his whole Health Care campaign and people were rallying against it because it "wasn't in the constitution", now that's pretty barbaric don't you think? Not giving poor people medicine because some 225 year old document says you shouldn't.
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Comments

  • ForzareForzare
    Till shade is gone, till water is gone, into the Shadow with teeth bared, screaming defiance with the last breath, to spit in Sightblinder’s eye on the last Day.
    Who could this topic be about, I wonder, I wonder.

    "EXCEPT; correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't it have amendments to it? Isn't the whole point that it can get changed to reflect modern times?"

    Yes, but that's kind of part of the issue with these specific people. You basically have two types of people I'n America, loose constructionists and strict constructionists.

    Loose constructionists see the Constitution as a living document; passages can be reinterpreted for modern times, and the government isn't necessarily restricted to just the powers specifically granted to it by the Constitution. These types of people would generally accept the health care bill as constitutional.

    Strict constructionists, on the other hand, think that the Constitution must be followed to the exact letter; if it is not specifically stated in the constitution, it's not allowed. It's much more restrictive viewpoint towards Government. These types of people would generally see the healthcare law as unconstitutional, because the document doesn't say anything about healthcare.

    According to this second group, if you want to make a law or whatever that isn't specifically allowed by the constitution, you NEED to make an amendment. Which is a really hard thing to do, because you need a supermajority of states to agree to amend the constitution.
  • Tnu1138Tnu1138
    and yes I fall under the latter admittedly I think ObamaCare would have a chance under the general welfare clause if it applies to everybody or under the tenth amendment. However the problem is if it stands up to the thirteenth amendment.
  • ForzareForzare
    Till shade is gone, till water is gone, into the Shadow with teeth bared, screaming defiance with the last breath, to spit in Sightblinder’s eye on the last Day.
    ...The one banning slavery?
  • Tnu1138Tnu1138
    edited 2011-05-22 10:01:12
    Yes the Healthcare thing would in essence subject the rights of the provider to those of the consumer. supposedly giving an expensive commodity for "free" that is not how markets work!

    Also strict constitutionalism is pretty well backed up by the tenth amendment that we are a government of enumerated powers.
  • ForzareForzare
    Till shade is gone, till water is gone, into the Shadow with teeth bared, screaming defiance with the last breath, to spit in Sightblinder’s eye on the last Day.
    But it's not for free. You'd still be paying for it.
  • Tnu1138Tnu1138
    and again paying for it by force. everyone would be forced to pay in to the same system creating a state supported monopoly on the given industry.
  • IanExMachinaIanExMachina
    I am Dr. Ned who is totally not Dr. Zed in disguise.
    ^ You say it like it is a bad thing.
  • Tnu1138Tnu1138
    Monopolies ARE a bad thing. Being forced to buy a service from any given provider IS a bad thing.
  • IanExMachinaIanExMachina
    I am Dr. Ned who is totally not Dr. Zed in disguise.
    Not really, it is the privatisation/PFI deals that are causing damage to the NHS here in the UK.
    They only succeed in partially failed obsolete projects with huge bills that the taxpayer has to foot, without any real increase in services provided.

    So no.
  • Tnu1138Tnu1138
    How do you explain that some people have to come here to get necessary health care?
  • ForzareForzare
    Till shade is gone, till water is gone, into the Shadow with teeth bared, screaming defiance with the last breath, to spit in Sightblinder’s eye on the last Day.
    It's not a monopoly, though. It's not banning private healthcare, it's just providing for those who can't afford it.
  • Tnu1138Tnu1138
    here's how I see it. It could work under either the general welfare clause or tenth amendment given that it stays in line iwht the thirteenth amendment. So long as it doesn't force everybody in to the system and provides an opt-in opt-out tax system so not everybody is forced at gunpoint to pay for everybody elses medical bills.
  • ForzareForzare
    edited 2011-05-22 10:16:41
    Till shade is gone, till water is gone, into the Shadow with teeth bared, screaming defiance with the last breath, to spit in Sightblinder’s eye on the last Day.
    It has nothing to do with slavery. At all.

    And nobody is being forced at gunpoint to do anything. Stop saying that. That's not how America works.
  • Tnu1138Tnu1138
    ok so if I don't like the system I can opt out of the tax that goes in to the system?
  • ForzareForzare
    edited 2011-05-22 10:18:39
    Till shade is gone, till water is gone, into the Shadow with teeth bared, screaming defiance with the last breath, to spit in Sightblinder’s eye on the last Day.
    You can't opt out of taxes. What government ever has let you opt out of taxes?

    But nobody's pointing a gun at your head to make you do it.
  • IanExMachinaIanExMachina
    I am Dr. Ned who is totally not Dr. Zed in disguise.
    How do you explain that some people have to come here to get necessary health care? 
    It is for experimental treatment/treatment under development, as treatment that isn't fully tested as it has to be a verified tested treatment for the NHS. Also purely cosmetic surgery is not on the NHS, so you would have to go abroad/private.

    And nobody is being forced at gunpoint to do anything. Stop saying that. That's not how America works.
    You sure? /joke
  • Tnu1138Tnu1138
    actually it's an idea i've been working on in 3essence your taxed for individual services and if you don't pay the specific tax you're denied that specific service Why should taxes be raised one verybody to provide a service for a specific portion of the population? The idea that I support is a voluntaryist tax-per-service system wherin you opt out of individual service taxes but are denied those services. Naturally there are exceptions that are outlined in the Constitution as general welfare services. But anything extra is an opt-in opt-out individual tax.
  • ForzareForzare
    edited 2011-05-22 10:26:32
    Till shade is gone, till water is gone, into the Shadow with teeth bared, screaming defiance with the last breath, to spit in Sightblinder’s eye on the last Day.
    ^^ Shhhhh, it's a secret to everybody.

    ^ What about social security?
  • Tnu1138Tnu1138
    opt- in opt-out the system as isn't really all that sustainab le and private savings is a viable option. and yes it is enforced at gunpoint at one point or another. You don't see the guns right away but every law is backed up at the barrel of a gun.  That is how the state operates.
  • ForzareForzare
    Till shade is gone, till water is gone, into the Shadow with teeth bared, screaming defiance with the last breath, to spit in Sightblinder’s eye on the last Day.
    I think you're overreacting. You just come off as paranoid.
  • Tnu1138Tnu1138
    I am paranoid. Also if J.M. Kynes knew anything about economics the US wouldn't be so screwed right now as it stands he's just a corporatist idiot.
  • glennmagusharveyglennmagusharvey
    edited 2011-05-22 10:43:47
    Creature - Florida Dragon Turtle Human
    > Yes the Healthcare thing would in essence subject the rights of the provider to those of the consumer. supposedly giving an expensive commodity for "free" that is not how markets work!

    > that is not how markets work!

    The Constitution does not say that we ought to be a capitalist society either.  Pick one reasoning and stick with it.

    > actually it's an idea i've been working on in 3essence your taxed for individual services and if you don't pay the specific tax you're denied that specific service

    Unfortunately, you can't opt out of things like a functioning and reasonably stable economy, national security, public safety, clean air, clean water, and the like.
  • Tnu1138Tnu1138
    edited 2011-05-22 10:58:15
    actually now that you mention it i'm not sure any given market is supported by the Constitution. so anything goes so long as the state isn't the one to do it. I'm all for Voluntaryist capitalism, socialism, syndicalism any thing so long as the state doesn't get its grubby hands in to anything.

    So wait state itnervention creates a good functioning economy?  you could have fooled me.

    So wait5 the all powerful benevolent federal government is the only thing that can do these things? ALL HAIL THE OMNIPOTENT STATE! Seriously that's fucking depressing that you need an all powerful state to feel like things are being done right. That is not a world I wna tot live in good sir where people seem to have total trust in the benevolent state.
  • Thorn14Thorn14
    And having total trust in mega corps is somehow better?
  • Tnu1138Tnu1138
    No i'm extremely anti collectivist actually I don't trust ANY collective at least in a free market you ahve an option not to deal wiht the big corperations but in a state market you don't have choices or optiosn your forced to put up with the corporation that is the state. Why must people always conflate capitalism and free maarkets with corporatism?
  • ForzareForzare
    Till shade is gone, till water is gone, into the Shadow with teeth bared, screaming defiance with the last breath, to spit in Sightblinder’s eye on the last Day.
    In a completely free market, the big corporations are going to become monopolies.
  • ninjaclownninjaclown
    edited 2011-05-22 14:02:04
    In a free market, you won't have a choice anyway when the big corporations buy you out. In fact, there's no safeguard preventing it. Seriously, think about what you say.
  • Thorn14Thorn14
    edited 2011-05-22 14:02:21
    ^^^  Dont feed me that "you can shop around" crap. Thats fine for cars or shopping marts maybe.

    This is your own freaking HEALTH we are talking here. Also some people dont have the resources or ability to 'shop around''

    ^ Exactly, Antitrust laws were made for a reason.
  • Tnu1138Tnu1138
    damnit whatthe fuck is wrong with the world? thorn you really know how to make me feel the pointlessness of things.
  • ForzareForzare
    Till shade is gone, till water is gone, into the Shadow with teeth bared, screaming defiance with the last breath, to spit in Sightblinder’s eye on the last Day.
    That's the spirit!
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