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Comments
^I only feel that way about X-Men. X-Men's premise is a great idea, but doesn't make much sense in the Marvel Universe.
Batman is just so much more badass for being a badass normal in a universe of super-powered beings and being able to compete with them.
But yeah, I concur. When your argument is "It sucks" then you're doing something wrong.
I like Batman but I feel he steals the show out of his batfamily way too much. Tim Drake, Dick Grayson, Barbara Gordon and Jim Gordon are all as badass as him (I'd dare say that Jim and Alfred, for that matter are even more badass than him)
Not to mention that since Watchmen and Kickass there've been a lot of film adaptations of Vertigo comics in development (And some have been released, such as the Losers)
I won't discuss Pilgrim's quality, as I think it is irrelevant (But for the record, I'll say I didn't like it), but to be perfectly honest, I don't see what's the difference between it and any run-of-the-mill superhero comic beyond the goal of the main character. Then again, i might just be me. -shrug-
(Fucking phone won't let me edit. Typng hurts as well.
All of IJBM must be doing something wrong, then.
Also, it's not like I don't raise valid points (I know superhero fans don't see any criticism of comics as valid, but, well, that's fans for you). To recap in TLDR fashion:
1. They're too expensive.
2. The plotlines rarely ever go anywhere or have any closure and seem specifically designed to be circlejerks.
3. The stories are manufactured by committee rather than actually written, and thus lack any artistic feel or value.
5. Thus, the quality doesn't justify the expense.
I think that about sums it up.
Oh yeah, and $1 PER PAGE! I'd correct that, but its such a hilarious typo that I'd rather just not live it down.
Expense is relative
The plotlines rarely ever go anywhere or have any closure and seem specifically designed to be circlejerks.
This is more true of Naruto and One Piece than it is the current runs of Spider-man and Batman
The stories are manufactured by committee rather than actually written, and thus lack any artistic feel or value.
Completely and utterly false.
Thus, the quality doesn't justify the expense.
Flawed premises, flawed logic, and flawed conclusion.
Dude, your entire counterargument was:
1. SUBJECTIVE!
2. These two manga I don't like are just as bad, so that excuses the same flaw in comics I do like!
3. To declare a statement false with absolutely no evidence whatsoever, when there's plenty of documented evidence (most of which is common knowledge) in support of the original statement.
So don't talk to me about "flaws."
Also:
I love how for Naruto and One Piece its the whole manga, but for Spidey and Bats its just the "current runs."
Granted, I don't really care since I don't read either of those manga (for all I know, they may actually be shit) but for future reference if you're gonna divide the comics into "runs" then you have to divide the manga too. Otherwise, you have to compare every volume ever to every published issue ever. Otherwise your entire argument is a load of dingo's kidneys.
Also, the committee thing you're talking about? That's how movies, anime, manga, and pretty much everything are made. It doesn't get published unless people think it will sell. Comics don't do it any more than anything else.
Also, calm the hell down.
Also. CHILL. OUT.
To a certain extent, you're right--and it's more and more true each passing day.
However, a lot of publishers work basically the same way Equestria Daily does: you submit your work, they send it to test readers to see if its up to standard (or, yes, if its potential profits), and if it is they put it out there. While I've heard horror stories of the editors forcing the author to rewrite his plot into something more formulaic and "marketable," usually the worst they do is no different than what you'd expect from your fanfic's beta-reader--IE basically it amounts to proofreading. This means that such methods allow for a lot more artistic diversity. If we're going to keep up the comics vs. manga charade, it behooves me to point out that this is how manga works, and by extension anime since that mostly cannibalizes manga.
With comics, what happens is that the suits get together and discuss market trends and other business religions, and make clandestine decisions about what a magazine is going to do. They then hand down these decisions to the writers, who have to find a way to make it work. Don't take my word for it--this is what's stated in the foreward to almost every goddamn graphic novel you probably have. It's the story of how Watchmen came to be, how Sandman came to be, how the Death and Return of Superman story came to be, how One More Day happened, its why we had all those Darker-and-Edgier revivals in the 1990s... granted, things were different back in the Silver Age (as Stan Lee comments in the foreward to Marvel Masterworks Amazing Spider-Man Volume 1) but nowadays, everything is so executive-controlled that trying to claim its not creatively stifling is basically sticking your head in the sand.
Again, crack open any given graphic novel and very often, the author himself will tell you (maybe not in so many words) exactly the same thing what I just said.
*Sigh* okay sir, let me see if I can explain this without turning into Dr. House.
This whole "runs" thing is nonsense. It doesn't matter if one writer was spectacular--if another comes along and undoes everything (and don't try to tell me that never happens) then it makes me right and you wrong.
It would be like if you argued that every episode of Thundercats comes down to Lion-O pulling a new Sword of Omens power out of his ass, and I argued back that there are some episodes that totally aren't like that. Those five don't redeem the rest of the 130-episode series. Same deal here. Grant Morrison doesn't automatically redeem every other Batman or Animal Man writer. The reason is the same as the Thundercats example: He's still writing Batman, he's still building on what others have done before him, much like an architect who adds a new floor to a building is building above or around the floors that others already placed. You can't segment a work like that. If the other 39 floors are termite-infested shitholes, it doesn't matter if floor #40 is an art deco masterpiece--the building still sucks.
I got to be honest, this whole business of "runs" has never made sense to me. I can only justify it if there's some huge time gap or complete change in style and format (like the transition from Old Who to New Who) or in works where each story is totally stand-alone and never interconnect (like James Bond) or are totally secondary to begin with (like most video games), but in most comics its more of a gradual shift, and taken like that you can't take one part of the overall Whatever-Man narrative and discard the rest any more than you can just take the Cell Saga from DBZ and discard the rest. In such cases, its an all-or-nothing proposition.
By the way:
my Exact Words were:
"The plotlines rarely ever go anywhere or have any closure and seem specifically designed to be circlejerks."
Inherent in the word "rarely" is that it happens, just not very often. Pointing out an exception to a statement does not prove a statement false--especially if the statement allows for them from the get-go.
Is... is it even legal to be that ignorant?
Shit like this is why I'd rather argue with Juan. He misses points but at least he's on the level.
foreward to Marvel Masterworks Amazing Spider-Man Volume 1) but
nowadays, everything is so executive-controlled that trying to claim its
not creatively stifling is basically sticking your head in the sand."
Your words, not mine.
But you said I said:
It's clear to anyone that your claim is the exact opposite of what was actually said. The only way you're not B.Sing me is if "less" was a typo.
Just to make this plain: the point was that the way comics are run is artistically stifling. This is backed by a statement by no less a personage than Stan Lee. I don't have the actual book on hand, but I remember in the first Spider-Man Masterwork he says something to the effect of "nowadays a whole committee has to approve of an idea before they'll let you print it, but back then I only had to convince one man." Keep in mind that he wrote the foreward for that in 1993, and things have only been getting worse since then.
(Although, that "one man" only let Spider-Man happen because his first outing was in the final issue of a cancelled rag anyway, so I guess creativity wasn't that highly valued even back in the Silver Age. But at least you didn't have company CEOs dictating that Dock Ock has to dress like he does in the movies like you do now).
A lot of people keep trying to turn discussions like these into manga vs. comic debates, but as I said earlier, just because a lot of manga commit the same sins does not excuse comics, much the same way that Genghis Khan killing people doesn't mean its okay for you to do it. That being said though, the whole comparison rests on the assumption that the two industries have exactly the same structure, and they don't, so any reasoning that draws from that is null and void.
I'm gonna go shop for video games on eBay. Peace!
I could handle stuff like this is if it was done with a little more grace, and if the motives were a little less transparent. As it is though, every time I read a superhero comic, I feel like the thing is basically a thinly-veiled advertisement telling me to buy more comics, much the same way some people watch Lucky Star and think its nothing but a commercial for Haruhi. I mean, I understand they're trying to make money, but there are more subtle and artful ways to go about it.
I got to admit, I'm a little soured on the whole "different POVs and interpretations" thing since I've read too many fanfics where authors use that to excuse being blatantly OOC with characters. I don't see it as much different in comics, except here the OOC has become canon (and thus, valid, no matter how horribly wrong it is), which means most characters are totally broken insofar as characterization goes. Michael Crichton once said "a statement that can mean anything means nothing," and I think that applies to personalities as well: a character who can have any personality in reality has as much personality as Gordon Freeman.