Superhero Comics

MoeDantes · 2011-07-25 05:20:39

Since I've heard so many complaints about things I like I figured I'd return the favor. I got to be honest I don't understand the appeal of these things. The one nice thing I can say about them is that the artists are pretty good at what they do (or at least they were--I can't stand the more modern artstyles) but I can't justify buying a graphic novel just for good drawings. That's one of my first biggest complaints: these things are so overpriced. You can literally expect to pay $15 for 100-150 pages (literally a dollar a page) for say one Marvel Masterwork. Of course you could get the Essentials instead but then you're getting them without color, which is a little like buying a dub-only anime DVD if you ask me. Some people have told me "the quality justifies the price" which... no, it really doesn't. Superhero stories are kind of lame, and a lot of times you can tell the writer had only one month to pen a narrative and like television, often they're penned around whatever will attract the most attention rather than actually being a story worth telling ("in this issue, one of the X-Men dies!"... and then its an X-Man nobody cares about anyway). This is before you even get into issues like retcons, characters who die and constantly come back to life, villains who are never stopped for good, the exact same social issues coming up over and over with no sense of progress or closure, or how the universes get more and more convoluted the further in they go. Never mind that by this point, all the characters you gave a damn about have either been flanderized to hell or else had their personalities canon-raped so they would appeal to the "edgy" demographic. That's my biggest issue right there (and I feel like I'm being redundant for some reason): nothing in comics is about art, its all focus-tested to appeal to trends and demographics. Sort of like moeblob anime. Granted, I still like the early Marvel and a few sundry others, but there is often a feeling that "they're good in spite of their flaws." And on some of my worst days (days where I don't have any painkillers especially) I simply can't look past them. It's hard to enjoy an early Juggernaut story with the foreknowledge that, in later years, they have Juggernaut trying to help the survivors of 9-11 (such a crass marketing stunt that I'm surprised Marvel didn't face public backlash over that). Anyway, I'm gonna go play some video games now. Peace!

Nova · 2011-07-25 05:23:11

You can literally expect to pay $15 for 100-150 pages (literally a dollar a page) for say one Marvel Masterwork.

Uhhhh...

MadassAlex · 2011-07-25 05:24:36

I don't really like superhero comics, either.

Marvel are awful with power creep. A super like Spiderman is relevant to me because he's a normal guy given a strong advantage, but still isn't as powerful as many of the villains he faces. He also deals with a normal life and normal obstacles that his super powers can't help him with.

But other Marvel heroes like the Hulk just become ridiculous. He's green, really angry and strong enough to break planets. Yawn. If I wanted those levels of ridiculousness, I'd watch TTGL 'cause it's tongue-in-cheek and I like the characters.

Nova · 2011-07-25 05:26:45

You know, somehow, I'm fairly sure that the entire point of the Hulk revolves around Bruce Banner trying to control him, not his ridiculous levels of strength >_>

MadassAlex · 2011-07-25 05:30:23

Initially.

Gets boring when the power creep sets in, though.

In any case, Batman is probably the best-written "super" out there.

Nova · 2011-07-25 05:35:53

It gets a bit boring when writers forget the premise of his story. It is Bruce Banner the story is supposed to be about, and his attempts at living life while having an incredibly violent being that can literally shatter planets inside him that will erupt from inside him when he gets upset.

Or so I figure. The best writers also humanize the Hulk- portraying him as a really dumb character who gets violent very easily, but is quite... endearing, when calm. Stupid, and extremely prone to having him fly into intense bursts of anger at any provocation, but gentle when calm.

Having him constantly fight things is kind of ridiculous and misses the point entirely, but I have no problem with the Hulk being as strong as he is. The conflict does not revolve around physical confrontations.

In other words... The Hulk's strength does not represent how powerful he is, or how powerful his opposition must be. It is directly proportional to his threat rating as the threat.

MadassAlex · 2011-07-25 05:51:17

To contextualise, most of what I know about the Hulk comes from Hulk fanboys.

So thank you for the measured analysis.

Nova · 2011-07-25 06:05:46

It's cool. I think. If you're not being sarcastic.

MadassAlex · 2011-07-25 06:06:03

Completely sincere.

Nova · 2011-07-25 06:22:29

Awesome.

Really, it's a problem many writers have with many characters. Take Batman.

Batman is not supposed to be a man who dresses up in a bat costume and fights crime.

Well, he is. But that's not all he is, and it's not all he does.

He fights crime to avenge his parents, yes. But above that, he's helping Gotham. And on that end, most writers forget that Batman is Bruce Wayne.

He does more than fight crime. He cuts deals, he funds orphanages, he does all that sort of crap. He fights crime as Batman. He faces off against many other problems that threaten Gotham as Bruce.

The_Edge · 2011-07-25 07:20:05

An issue I have with superhero comics is the floating timeline. By now, Marvel and DC have created a unique worlds that don't need to piggyback off of reality to create a setting. So why the hell do they the current issues always need to be today. It causes a lot of problems in terms of dates of past events and origins. One good example of this is a more recent addition to the Marvel universe. Runaways is a series that started in the early to mid-2000s and is about teenagers you fight our their parents are supervillains and in turn discover their own abilities and run away in order to survive and defeat their parents. Most of the characters at that time are established to have been born in the 1980s. This is in fact is a major plot point. However, given the floating timeline of Marvel and in 2009 when the third volume of the comic had ended. They were still teenagers and haven't really aged more than a year, but since at that point it was 2009 their individual birthyears had then changed with the constantly updating setting but slower paced storyline. So now the Runaways had to be born in the 1990s. Even the oldest among them at age 18 would have been born in 1991 in a 2009 setting.

The problem with a floating timeline gets even worse with characters who have been around for more than 60 years and aren't even over 40 years old in the comic book. The floating timeline is also a part of the reason DC needs a universe reboot about every 10 to 20 years now.

Nova · 2011-07-25 07:23:03

You underestimate how much work is involved in creating a functional setting in a day-to-day setting like Marvel's.

The_Edge · 2011-07-25 07:25:37

How so?

Dynamod · 2011-07-25 07:27:16

my only issue is, why just superhero comics? can't we have a decent comic that doesnt have to deal with superheroes? (and you know, actually be sucsessful on the same level)

The_Edge · 2011-07-25 07:28:52

Exactly! Remember how DC comics once stood for Detective Comics?

nohaynicklibre · 2011-07-25 07:32:04

I've always seen Batman more as a detective than a superhero.

Nova · 2011-07-25 07:32:54

Look at the way history interacts with us. We have wars, which impact countries financially, emotionally, and such. We have important events in history that people celebrate because it affected people, but there's also religious vents, spiritual events and mythological events that are celebrated. You need to be careful with your money, otherwise your financial system just doesn't work. You need to work out when religions developed, why they developed, how they developed. You need to explore the events behind every major event, you need to explore what decisions affected what laws were passed and how they affected the country. You need to explore how everything interacts with everything, because if you don't, your setting will collapse when people notice the holes.

I've built settings from the ground up. They're full of holes, and I've spent years developing them.

my only issue is, why just superhero comics? can't we have a decent comic that doesnt have to deal with superheroes?

There are. Ask Juan.

TheConductor · 2011-07-25 07:34:28

The Marvel Universe, roughly, operates on a 3:1 timescale. That is, for every three years that pass in real life, one has passed in the MU.

vacasama · 2011-07-25 07:34:34

What bought this topic on? The recent Comic Con?

The_Edge · 2011-07-25 07:36:06

^^^Agreed, but what does that have to do with a floating timelines?

Nova · 2011-07-25 07:39:39

I was replying to this:

By now, Marvel and DC have created a unique worlds that don't need to piggyback off of reality to create a setting.

Dynamod · 2011-07-25 07:41:05

There are. Ask Juan.

(shitty attempt as using same quote style notwithstanding) Why Should I have to? if it was, wouldn't I have heard about it outside of the medium itself?

I mean seriously, when was it that superheroes and comic books became so synominous (sp) with one another. I want more shit like scott pilgrim to become popular now it sucks! D=

Nova · 2011-07-25 07:42:26

Use the indent button. Just to the right of the bullet points.

It's because the genre lends itself well to superhero stuff. Not so much to other stories.

TheConductor · 2011-07-25 07:42:37

@Dynamod:

Walking Dead, Fables, Sandman, Hellblazer, Judge Dredd, Hellboy (kind of, depending on what you'd call a superhero), Maus, Transmetropolitan, 100 Bullets.

The_Edge · 2011-07-25 07:49:21

^^^^Well, they don't. I'm not saying that they need to completely change the setting, but it is silly to still being using the Now setting. When you make a major supervillain the president of the United States then you have places to go with that and you've pretty much departed from the Now setting completely. Keeping up on current world events has little do to with the superhero comicbook world. It just pretty much changes Iron Man's origin story after ever new war. Sure, 9/11 had a huge effect on everything even the comicbook worlds, but does it really matter who the president in the real world is? Does the real-world economy, religions, and current events really change anything in the the comicbook worlds? No, the writers have their own plans in place for those worlds and they have their own world changing events (that usually get retconned anyway). If anyway, current events are just background at best.

Nova · 2011-07-25 07:54:59

But they're there, because it's a lot of work to consistently keep up with new universes and their developments.

I'm not saying it's good, but it makes sense.

The_Edge · 2011-07-25 08:11:34

Yeah, universe upkeep is a lot of work.

Nova · 2011-07-25 08:13:04

It's much easier to use one that keeps itself up to date.

The_Edge · 2011-07-25 08:19:29

I have a multi-title comicbook universe in works right now. I have the main titles starting in an alternate universe 2006 and timeline wise going for about ten years and stopping there, because yeah... it would be very difficult to keep in order.

Nova · 2011-07-25 08:22:57

And everybody's already complaining about how they screw this one up. At least people have a reference for this one.

MoeDantes · 2011-07-25 11:43:16

Getting back to the Incredible Hulk discussion earlier....

I like the Hulk, but honestly I think the Kenneth Johnson TV series is an improvement over the comic in just about every way.

In fact, it reminds me of something else that bothers me. That series, as well as the very earliest Superman comics, were basically about "what would happen if this one extraordinary guy existed in the everyday world." That was part of what made those versions interesting, and I feel like making superheroes a "universe" dilutes that somewhat. Then again, I kind of dislike "universes" on principle--I'd rather each character be separate and unrelated.

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