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The idea that a bad X is not an X.

GelzoGelzo
edited 2011-12-07 00:32:02 in General
Pony Sleuth
Whether X is a piece of art, or car, or man, or human being, or what have you.

Now I know that I'm not in charge of how people use language, and I understand it can be a tricky thing to define words when a person's... "idiolect" (I guess the term that y'all would be familiar with is "personal dictionary" but that has a more narrow and negative meaning as I understand it.) ties them so closely to connotations. Also, the idiomatic usage of this sense is one I find valid and humorous enough. "The X suck this year, they're not a real team." and "X is a bad choice, it's not a deck in this format." are the kinds of phrases I enjoy. Saying something is not art because it fails to do what you expect good art to do seems unfair, and I might be wrong in assuming this, but I get the feeling people tend to use it literally.

Arguments over what is art, or beauty, or love tire me since the participants don't seem to be aware that they may be using different definitions and the question about what suits these ideas for the participants becomes further obscured.
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Comments

  • MillerCrossMillerCross
    You can change. You can.
    hm, i disagree when you mentioned love. I do think that lot of times the definitions used (Or, at least, the implied definitions) seem to be misguided.

    Like the infamous "Love is when your girl is like...totally into the same stuff that you are"

    Beauty and art are a bit more complicated. I believe that everything can be art or beautiful in the right angle. It's just that some stuff's beauty/art value are much more...well, more, I guess?
  • CornucopianSocialistCornucopianSocialist
    Yeah, my teacher thought that the urinal in the art gallery was not art. What.
  • ForzareForzare
    Till shade is gone, till water is gone, into the Shadow with teeth bared, screaming defiance with the last breath, to spit in Sightblinder’s eye on the last Day.
    ^ not sure if sarcasm
  • MalkavianMalkavian
    MORONS! I'VE GOT MORONS ON MY PAYROLL!
    I'll defend dada to my death if only because it forces people to think about what art is.
  • MillerCrossMillerCross
    You can change. You can.
    Mr Malk A. Vian was found choked in his own bed this morning when a crazy Colombian carved in his chest "I'm a crazy Colombian and this is my masterpiece" 

    Police is uncertain if the Colombian was honest
  • GelzoGelzo
    Pony Sleuth
    I think love is one of those things that is actually comparatively close to being a universal human experience, so I think people who have experienced enough of life can be reasonably certain that an emotional experience could be defined as romantic love (distinct from other senses such as familial love) in the minds of others were they to somehow know the exact same situation.

    I still think it's possible for a person to either too clumsily define their definition, or for them to accept an instance that suits their definition but not that of others, even if they do achieve experiencing the emotion referred to. Some people may accept a stronger or weaker form of the emotion than others as fitting the definition, and others may only accept mutual romantic affection under certain circumstances as love. I'm sure there are cases where more socially conservative people "fall in love with" an individual that is unacceptable as a lover in their community, and that person may reject that affection as something that is not "love" but accept a more socially acceptable pairing as such even if the feelings were the same.

    Hmm... Am I being clear?
  • ForzareForzare
    edited 2011-12-07 00:51:10
    Till shade is gone, till water is gone, into the Shadow with teeth bared, screaming defiance with the last breath, to spit in Sightblinder’s eye on the last Day.
    ^^ And art critics raved.
  • GelzoGelzo
    Pony Sleuth
    Someone should throw a rave for critics, just for the pun.
  • CornucopianSocialistCornucopianSocialist
    "I think people who have experienced enough of life can be reasonably
    certain that an emotional experience could be defined as romantic love"

    As we know it today, it is very much an invention.
  • ForzareForzare
    edited 2011-12-07 00:55:17
    Till shade is gone, till water is gone, into the Shadow with teeth bared, screaming defiance with the last breath, to spit in Sightblinder’s eye on the last Day.
    ^ What makes you say that? (Other than "I personally haven't felt it." I will not accept that as a valid answer. Or stories of how some marriages dont work.)
  • MadassAlexMadassAlex
    edited 2011-12-07 00:54:48
    One foot in front of the other, every day.
    ^^ Arguably, but we can't go back in time, be other people, come back and compare feelings or anything. There's no objective measurement for love, especially since it's different things to different people.
  • ClockworkUniverseClockworkUniverse
    OOOooooOoOoOOoo, I'm a ghoOooOooOOOost!
    ^^^The concept of love as a basis for marriage is, but I don't think the concept of love itself is.
  • MillerCrossMillerCross
    You can change. You can.
    @Gelzo: Basically, love is idionsyncratic?

    that's true. 

    Also, I just realized my argument was mostly based in relationship definitions (Where the thing I said would probably be a very bad base, as having common taste does not make a relationship, although it helps in terms of establishing it)
  • GelzoGelzo
    Pony Sleuth
    If you define love as something that can only be experienced by a single fated pair, I'd dismiss that as a social construct as well.

    I don't think that strong emotional attachments that inspire loyalty and desire to mate are things that you can fairly argue do not exist.
  • CornucopianSocialistCornucopianSocialist
    edited 2011-12-07 01:11:19

    ROMANTIC
    LOVE IS A
    HOAX!



    www tc.umn.edu/~parkx032/CY-HOAX.html


  • MillerCrossMillerCross
    edited 2011-12-07 01:26:00
    You can change. You can.
    fuck

    i'm an existentialist and i wanna slap the fuck out of that guy

    Honestly, I believe that love doesn't exist in the most literal sense, and that it maybe isn't even universal. But if it matters to someone and if it affects these many people, then it must be something. And that something must mean something as well.

    ETA: Also, to quote David Lynch: "It makes me uncomfortable to talk about meanings and things. It is better not to know so much about what things mean. Because the meaning, it's a very personal thing and the meaning for me is different than the meaning for someone else."

  • GelzoGelzo
    Pony Sleuth
    :/

    I don't think I need to follow that link.
  • ForzareForzare
    Till shade is gone, till water is gone, into the Shadow with teeth bared, screaming defiance with the last breath, to spit in Sightblinder’s eye on the last Day.
    ^ You don't.

    And I got through like two paragraphs because ugh

    Sour grapes much
  • CornucopianSocialistCornucopianSocialist
    Sour grapes? It's uplifting!
  • ForzareForzare
    edited 2011-12-07 01:19:37
    Till shade is gone, till water is gone, into the Shadow with teeth bared, screaming defiance with the last breath, to spit in Sightblinder’s eye on the last Day.
    I'm having trouble seeing any actual arguments there other than "people talk about love a lot," which really isn't an argument at all.

    The red on pink and IMPORTANT UNDERLINED PHRASES alone make me want to hit the guy.

    ^ lol
  • ClockworkUniverseClockworkUniverse
    edited 2011-12-07 01:21:04
    OOOooooOoOoOOoo, I'm a ghoOooOooOOOost!
    Hmmm...he states that romantic love as a concept was invented 800 years ago.

    Pyramus and Thisbe was written more than 2000 years ago and is about romantic love.

    So basically, this guy has no idea what he's talking about.
  • CornucopianSocialistCornucopianSocialist
    I mean, it's very uplifting. They take the point of view that things don't have to be this way. That we can let go of all the craziness we associate with love and create reasoned loving relationships. That all this pain of romance is senseless. It's very optimistic.
  • ForzareForzare
    edited 2011-12-07 01:25:09
    Till shade is gone, till water is gone, into the Shadow with teeth bared, screaming defiance with the last breath, to spit in Sightblinder’s eye on the last Day.
    ^^ When the dude writes an essay with the title calling love a HOAX in all caps, it's not a huge leap.

    ^
    >>love doesn't exist
    >>reasoned loving relationships

    Find a new word or explain yourself.
  • MillerCrossMillerCross
    You can change. You can.
    Meh, the conception that a life can go on without pain and be good or happy sounds completely and utterly dumbfounded

    Our despair makes way for our happiness, the same way destruction makes way for creation, destiny for free will and more Gaiman quotes go here
  • CornucopianSocialistCornucopianSocialist
    edited 2011-12-07 01:29:10
    You might want to try actually reading it... They never say love doesn't exist.

    The very first sentence is:

    "How
    can we transcend
    our romantic delusions and fantasy feeling and build our LOVING  relationships on
    reality?" (emphasis mine)
  • ClockworkUniverseClockworkUniverse
    OOOooooOoOoOOoo, I'm a ghoOooOooOOOost!
    Yes, yes he does. It's kinda the title. And the second and third sentences.

    He does seem to then go back on his word, meaning the start is the author lying about his own opinion to get your attention.
  • MadassAlexMadassAlex
    One foot in front of the other, every day.
    "Fantasy feelings" is an absolute bullshit phrase. Feelings are entirely internal; if you feel it, it's real. And that's all there is to it. Trying to impose objectivity on human emotion is the height of arrogance and self-importance.
  • MillerCrossMillerCross
    You can change. You can.
    Its point is that romantic love is nonexistent. Or, as it puts it, a hoax and a delusion forced upon us. 
  • CornucopianSocialistCornucopianSocialist
    edited 2011-12-07 01:33:43
    No, no he doesn't. The key word is ROMANTIC love here. They define it here:

    http://www.tc.umn.edu/~parkx032/RLT-WEB.html

    Scroll down a bit.
  • ForzareForzare
    edited 2011-12-07 01:32:44
    Till shade is gone, till water is gone, into the Shadow with teeth bared, screaming defiance with the last breath, to spit in Sightblinder’s eye on the last Day.
    ^
    "Fantasy feelings" is an absolute bullshit phrase. Feelings are entirely internal; if you feel it, it's real. And that's all there is to it. Trying to impose objectivity on human emotion is the height of arrogance and self-importance.
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