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The villains in Home Alone 1 and 2

2

Comments

  • If you must eat a phoenix, boil it, do not roast it. This only encourages their mischievous habits.
    Honestly this is a largely moot discussion because home invaders will come in when you're not home.

    Tell that to this guy


    There's a fairly large amounts of deaths (at least a dozen) in my town due to home invasions while people were home
  • Apart from people who are crazy enough not to care, some types of crime actually require you to be at home for the intruders to pull it off - for example, if you have a safe and only you have the combination, or you're a bank manager and they want to hold your family hostage while you let them into the bank.


    Those could be film scenarios, but they'd be much darker ones than Home Alone.

  • I'm personally not bothered about using whatever force possible against a home invader. They started it by coming in uninvited. I have no idea what they want to do, they have some sort of plan, obviously. That's not fair if it's my home. I should be able to be comfortable in my own home.

    The last thing I'm gonna do is worry about the invader's comfort. Shoot, fight or flight response would probably kick in for lots of people, and the impulse when you're already home is probably to stand your ground. The invader's the one tainting the safe zone. They reap what they sew and I'll not be sympathetic to anyone coming into someone's property and destroying their peace of mind/safety/what have you.
  • You can change. You can.
    Yeah, what waltzy said.

    I would try to not kill, of course, but the idea of not defending myself and the idea of being restrained into not using lethal force when they're probably willing to do so seems ridiculous.
  • Way I see it, it makes more sense for the law to protect the owner of the home if there's a deadly fight. You can't know whether the intruder plans to kill you, and I figure it's excusable for the owner to panic and go into kill mode in that situation.

    I think it's also one of those things where even if the situation is such that attempts at non-violence are the most moral or smart decisions, it's best if the law doesn't punish a person for not doing so. Sort of like, I guess abortion could be a good analogy depending on your stance. There are cases where you might think it's immoral, but there are also cases where making it illegal could be extremely harmful to the woman, and some cases could involve grey areas the law wasn't able to predict. I think it's best not to involve the law and make your moral arguments outside of it if you want to change people's behavior.

    Also, I thought a lot of home invaders would try entering when they figure you're asleep.
  • One foot in front of the other, every day.
    Aw drat, I missed the discussion on restraining force against deadly force. :<

    -sheathes sword-
  • No rainbow star
    ^^ Hence why I said accidentally kill (guess I could be clearer - what I meant was distinguishing between a panicked person killing a possible threat as opposed to a man calmly shooting a thief in the head when the thief is surprised by the person and about to leave due to not wanting a confrontation)
  • How do you make that distinction? Dead men tell no tales, and no one is going to want to incriminate themselves.
  • edited 2011-12-05 17:08:04
    Till shade is gone, till water is gone, into the Shadow with teeth bared, screaming defiance with the last breath, to spit in Sightblinder’s eye on the last Day.
    ^^ How do you make that distinction, though, legally?

    If there's a dude in my house, my first instinct, if not to run, would be to grab the nearest gun (if I had one), or heavy/sharp object I could and defend myself. I'm not going to take the time to ask him why he's here, I'm going to do what I can not to die.

    If I shoot someone who's in my house, and charging me with his fists, who's to say that he was actually attacking me, and not trying to leave when he saw me? No one else was there to witness. It wouldn't be fair to take such circumstantial things into consideration if there's no way to really prove what happened.

    That said, there's a difference between shooting a dude who's in your house and shooting a dude who's trying to leave in the back.

    GELZO

    Y U SO NINJA
  • No rainbow star
    Well I'm sure that a guy with their weapons dropped or with a bullet in their back would probably be somewhat damning evidence
  • edited 2011-12-05 17:46:58
    Till shade is gone, till water is gone, into the Shadow with teeth bared, screaming defiance with the last breath, to spit in Sightblinder’s eye on the last Day.
    Bullet in the back, yeah. That's why I said there's a difference when you're talking about shooting a dude who's trying to run.

    It's not always going to be anywhere near that clear cut, though.

    Who's to say whether he dropped he dropped his weapons to run or lost his grip after he got shot? There's too much uncertainty in this kind of situation to justify potentially heavily punishing someone who acted to defend himself in the heat of the moment.
  • I love that the first six words were exactly the same.

    And Ica, DEAD PEOPLE TEND TO DROP WEAPONS. Besides that, you need to prove guilt beyond a shadow of a doubt. Without witnesses and in a case where it's reasonable to expect someone to fear for their life, that's going to be difficult.
  • One foot in front of the other, every day.
    Okay, a note on combat.

    It will always serve self-preservation to assume than anyone who comes at your with violent intent or under suspicious circumstances will fight to the best of their abilities. The issue with being gentle in a combat situation is that you're not using your violent potential while your adversary may do just that. Most people aren't trained in combat, so for most people, holding back is a mistake that will get you injured or killed.

    While I consider restraining an assailant the morally superior option, it may not be practical, especially if they've got experience with violence. Three are three more practical options:

    - Intimidation
    - Injuring them so that they flee
    - Killing

    One issue that arises is that the distinction between the last two can be very thin. Like I mentioned above, you could be signing your own death certificate if you hold back. My advice would be to hit them hard and fast with an appropriate object somewhere soft and open. Don't worry about killing them or not killing them, and let combat be combat. That's just the nature of it. Everyone who willingly initiates violence should be prepared to deal with the consequences.

    Most of you probably don't have much experience with violence, so you might not understand what it feels like to be the target of such for no legitimate reason. If you're ever there, you'll understand the fear and anger that violence causes on the receiving end. In other words, it's all well and good to theorise and discuss morality from safety and security, but it's another to be in the path of fists or weapons and have to actually fight. So just fight. Don't aim to kill, but don't aim to be merciful. Violence has a habit of spilling over the boundaries we set for ourselves, and those boundaries will cripple you anyway -- perhaps literally.
  • If you must eat a phoenix, boil it, do not roast it. This only encourages their mischievous habits.
    I believe the legislation in this case actually covers reasonable force. It's a very murky subject, but essentially what it covers you for is your perception of the situation. If you saw the person as having the intent and purpose of causing you grievous/lethal harm and reacted with lethal force, then the law would cover you; whereas if you saw a home invader stealing your TV, and you clocked them in the back of the head with your baseball bat as they were walking out with it, thus caving in their skulls, you would still be charged with assault and possibly murder/manslaughter.

    It's very hard to prove, but cross-examining your story can reveal holes in it, which is why people in this situation are grilled by the police, even if they are still recovering from a traumatic situation.
  • OOOooooOoOoOOoo, I'm a ghoOooOooOOOost!
    cross-examining your story can reveal holes in it
    Replace "can" with "will invariably, even if you're telling the truth."

    Human memory kinda sucks, especially regarding traumatic events.
  • edited 2011-12-05 19:22:20
    Has friends besides tanks now
    Agreeing with Waltzy and others; assuming I were both physically capable of sticking up to a house invader and mentally calm enough to initiate violence against them in the heat of the moment, I wouldn't hesitate to either shoot them, if I had a gun, or swing at them as hard as possible with the biggest, bluntest object within reach. No pity for people like that.

    Then again, since I live in a one-story house, I'm at a grave disadvantage, so it probably wouldn't get that far.
  • If you must eat a phoenix, boil it, do not roast it. This only encourages their mischievous habits.
    Yeah, but the police understand that too, see.
  • OOOooooOoOoOOoo, I'm a ghoOooOooOOOost!
    ^True. Basically, like you said, hard to prove either way.
  • MORONS! I'VE GOT MORONS ON MY PAYROLL!
    So, as has been explained before, I'm pacifist and as such abhor violence in all forms and blah-de-blah-de-blah. I can accept that there are a lot of people who don't accept my morality and that there are people who find violence an effective solution.

    That said, I can't understand thinking it's completely okay to bludgeon someone to death from what is 99% of time just stealing. While I certainly don't condone the act of theft, if someone is breaking and entering into someone's house they're not doing it for fun. While I can understand an act of fear leading to overt violence and aggression, I don't care for the idea that the people suffering such deserve no sympathy or 'deserved' it.
  • OOOooooOoOoOOoo, I'm a ghoOooOooOOOost!
    I don't care for the idea that the people suffering such deserve no sympathy or 'deserved' it.
    I don't think they deserve it. But in a violent situation, my first goal will be to minimize the risk to myself and others I care about.
  • edited 2011-12-06 01:20:45
    MORONS! I'VE GOT MORONS ON MY PAYROLL!
    There's been language in this thread that says such though. 

    I can understand someone acting violently to defend themselves certainly, but having killed someone... or hell even causing them permanent damage... and feeling no guilt is an alien idea to me.

    On a slightly related note, I gained a lot of respect for John Barrowman who physically stopped a mugger and, upon learning it was a homeless teenager, worked to get him a low-level job working at the TV set. At the expense of sounding saccharine the world really needs more understanding like that.
  • You can change. You can.
    I wouldn't kill anyone. Doesn't mean that if the situation means that I, or someone who lives with me might die, I wouldn't try to fight until the other person either goes away or is incapacitated. If the guy puts on enough of a resistance, it escalates into lethal force by both sides.

    But the thing is, yes, most probably a home invader does not intend to kill a person and just intends to steal. But to pretend that such a person wouldn't be prepared in case the people who live in the house wouldn't find him seems a bit careless to me.
  • edited 2011-12-06 01:25:25
    If you must eat a phoenix, boil it, do not roast it. This only encourages their mischievous habits.
    I'm fairly it's due to dehumanisation, for one thing. When somebody breaks into a private sanctuary and intends to take something of yours, it's a lot easier to stop seeing them as a human being with motivations behind their acts, and a lot easier to see them as an invader- and as long as you're seeing them as an invader and not a human being, it's okay to kill them, because they're not a person then.

    I note that very few of the people who talk about killing home invaders would do the same to, say, shoplifters, though, even if they own the store.

    I mean, that's one thing that contributes to the mindset, at least.
  • edited 2011-12-06 01:29:40
    MORONS! I'VE GOT MORONS ON MY PAYROLL!
    I can understand that. I can even, under certain circumstances, support extreme actions in the heat of the moment.

    What I'm saying is that unless you can say for certain your mugger is leterally soulless, saying you feel no guilt for killing another human being strikes me as being very callous and entitled.

    ^That's part of my point. If someone tries to steal a laptop from Wal-Mart, fines are generally what they're looking at. A former-Vietnam Vet taking money from my purse? EUSTACE GET THE SHOTGUN!

    It's easy to see people as the monster instead forced into unpleasant situations. Most people don't want to do illegal things if only for the issue of dealing with the authorities.
  • You can change. You can.
    Oh, I'd never say I'd feel guiltless for killing a person in any circumnstance. Fuck, I've only fought like...thrice in my life and I still get pangs of guilt about those sometimes.

    However, I do think the law has to give me a degree of protection if it came to such a case. Self defense and whatnot.
  • edited 2011-12-06 01:37:58
    MORONS! I'VE GOT MORONS ON MY PAYROLL!
    The law does give self-defense as an out... here anyways.

    But in the case of home invasion, certainly you could see someone shooting an invader who started to flee as soon as they saw the gun?

    I'm not against actions you take to defend yourself, but I dislike the idea that you can take any action on a burglar. If you have a bat or a toy katana from Spencer's I can understand manslaughter but actual firearms change power dynamics and have a lot less justification either morally or legally.
  • You can change. You can.
    That is indeed unnencessary, yes

    Not sure how does the law treats it here. From what I understand, self defense is indeed enough of an argument to reduce charges, provided there's enough evidence that lethal force was necessary. But I'm not entirely sure, as all my knowledge of the law went away the moment I graduated.
  • MORONS! I'VE GOT MORONS ON MY PAYROLL!
    Honestly, I'm less concerned with the law as I am with morality.

    I mean, have you seen some of the law-makers in my country. =P
  • If you must eat a phoenix, boil it, do not roast it. This only encourages their mischievous habits.
    The law does allow you to protect oneself.

    It also covers the killing of home invaders, though, and considers it justifiable homicide, which makes me a bit uneasy.

    That's part of my point. If someone tries to steal a laptop from Wal-Mart, fines are generally what they're looking at. A former-Vietnam Vet taking money from my purse? EUSTACE GET THE SHOTGUN!

    It's easy to see people as the monster instead forced into unpleasant situations. Most people don't want to do illegal things if only for the issue of dealing with the authorities.

    A guy in my state was killed fairly recently, during a home invasion. He was the home invader. He was also a cocaine addict, and was stealing to support his drug addiction.

    After his death, the guy's family came forward, and spoke about how his loss had devastated their family.

    The guy may have been a thief, a drug addict, and a violent criminal, but he was also a father, a brother and a son, and people still loved him.

    Now he's not, because he was shot dead by the owner of the house.
  • OOOooooOoOoOOoo, I'm a ghoOooOooOOOost!
    See, if they're fleeing, shooting them's different.

    And as for guns, bear in mind that showing that you have one could end a fight before it starts. If you have a knife, they might think they have a fighting chance.
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