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"Character X is too whiny!"

SaigyoujiSaigyouji
edited 2011-11-08 07:49:21 in Media
But you never had any to begin with.
People have some really weird double standards for stuff like this. This is mostly something I've seen in the anime fandom, so I'll be using examples from there.

Shinji Ikari, from Evangelion: Whines because everybody is dead/insane/horribly injured, and the world is going to hell. UNACCEPTABLE.

Igarashi Ganta, from Deadman Wonderland: Whines because he's been framed for the murder of his classmates and best friends, and forced to fight in deathmatches for the enjoyment of people on the internet. UNACCEPTABLE

Ouma Shu, from Guilty Crown: Whines because he has friend issues. ACCEPTABLE.

Something seems off here.
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Comments

  • DonZabuDonZabu
    edited 2011-11-08 09:44:39
    I have never heard of the latter two, and I've never seen anyone complain about the first two and simultaneously accept the last one.

    Something seems off here.
  • InsanityAddictInsanityAddict
    Diet NEET

    Perhaps it has to do with the motive of the viewer. One could watch Evangelion solely for the mecha action(a tad misguided), and thus complain about the protagonist not kicking butt. Conversely, a series that focuses on teenagers angsting it up could receive less complaints because that's what the viewers are in for. Also, a lot more leeway is giving for dudettes and tortured bishies.

  • MillerCrossMillerCross
    You can change. You can.
    I'd argue that animu fans want their action heroes to be...action heroes, and while this is true, it's still a misguided belief.

    Anyway, Shinji is a rather controversial character and a bad example, as his angst and character arc are not disliked because they're "whiny" so much as how they are whiny (Ending the world, etc etc)
  • CrimsonCrimson
    Give us fire! Give us ruin! Give us our glory!
    It's not angst itself so much as how well its written is the issue.

    To make a viewer sympathize with a character enough to not be put off by whatever level of angst they display is much easier said than done. A lot of half-assed writers often fail to do this and you end up with supposedly sympathetic characters that just come off as petty and insufferable.
  • LouieWLouieW
    edited 2011-11-08 14:26:07
    Loser
    I think InsanityAddict is right about the motive of the viewer. I mean, if you just want to see heroics, angsty characters are probably going to bother you.

    I also feel like a lot of disliking whiny characters has more to do with not liking "whinyness" in general rather than believing it is justified in certain circumstances. Basically, I question the existence of a double standard here. For example, someone might not like Shinji's personality because he or she just really dislikes characters who are far from traditionally courageous heroes.

    Does that mean that the people in question would probably not become incredibly distressed if they were in Shinji's situation? I doubt it. But that does not mean that they want to be reminded of that when watching a show for entertainment.
  • MalkavianMalkavian
    MORONS! I'VE GOT MORONS ON MY PAYROLL!
    I initially read 'Guilty Crown' as 'Guilty Gear'...

    This will be an interesting few months.

    In any case, the only example I actually know there in Shinji and for me, my distaste for the character came through the end. Shinji's angst is certainly understandable, but the problem is how he doesn't really move past it. Anno's comments also seem to galvanize a lot of Shinji's more selfish actions. In the first few episodes he's comparable to Amuro Ray in a lot of ways though people tend to forget that war transformed Amuro in a bitter, sullen warmonger. 

    Ultimately, I think we don't accept Shinji because he's not all that well-written.
  • vandrovandro
    He who laments and can't let go of the past is forever doomed to solitude.
    I stand diametrically opposed to the thought that shinji's whining being detrimental to the show, and honestly, I think he is far more a hero than many stereotypical heroic characters, he succeeds despite his own flaws, which I find admirable.

    Now about Ouma Shu being acceptable in his whining, he's Guilty Crown's main character, but his show is less focused on him than Evangelion was on shinji.
  • MalkavianMalkavian
    MORONS! I'VE GOT MORONS ON MY PAYROLL!
    for varying definitions of success.
  • vandrovandro
    He who laments and can't let go of the past is forever doomed to solitude.
    The ending of the show notwhistanding, how many times did shinji save Tokyo-3 during the show?
  • MillerCrossMillerCross
    You can change. You can.
    Ultimately, I think we don't accept Shinji because he's not all that well-written.

    speak for yourself.
  • MalkavianMalkavian
    MORONS! I'VE GOT MORONS ON MY PAYROLL!
    ^^A hero who fails at the very end can't be said to succeed.
  • MillerCrossMillerCross
    You can change. You can.
    If we're talking about the original series, then his only failure was that he killed his boyfriend.
  • ForzareForzare
    Till shade is gone, till water is gone, into the Shadow with teeth bared, screaming defiance with the last breath, to spit in Sightblinder’s eye on the last Day.
    ^ Was there any other way that could have ended?
  • gentlemanorcusgentlemanorcus
    I think Shinji is an okay character. I can certainly understand his angst, and the fact he doesn't get over it fits with the bleak tone of the show. He doesn't really get above "okay", but that's more because of my dislike of the show then anything else. I heard he's more brave in the new movies and the manga, which I have yet to watch/read.
  • ForzareForzare
    edited 2011-11-08 16:09:22
    Till shade is gone, till water is gone, into the Shadow with teeth bared, screaming defiance with the last breath, to spit in Sightblinder’s eye on the last Day.
    I liked Shinji.  He's not one of my favorite characters ever (or even in Evangelion), but I did like him, for what he was.
  • gentlemanorcusgentlemanorcus
    If anything, the worse thing about him is his relationship with Kaworu. One episode is not enough time to develop a relationship or convince me it hurt him psychologically. 
  • MillerCrossMillerCross
    edited 2011-11-08 16:11:43
    You can change. You can.
    Also, depression is not just as simple as "Hey, I'll fight an unstoppable horde of monsters and then I'll be ok"

    you live with it your whole life and you deal with it.

    ^ Was there any other way that could have ended?

    No, but Shinji sees it as a failure and it triggers the last two episodes as Shinji finally reaches mental breakdown.

    ^The point of it being so fleeting is that Shinji was so broken that when just a random person shows him the smallest sing of affection, he practically began to love them. 

    It's that sad.
  • vandrovandro
    He who laments and can't let go of the past is forever doomed to solitude.
    I am taking issue at the thought that someone who saves lives over and over doesn't succeed in saving lives because he doesn't win in the end? So no comic superhero succeeds? As far as I know they never win in the end because they never reach the end!
  • ForzareForzare
    Till shade is gone, till water is gone, into the Shadow with teeth bared, screaming defiance with the last breath, to spit in Sightblinder’s eye on the last Day.
    He had successes, but I wouldn't say that he succeeded.  If that makes any sense.

    All the people he saved still ended up tanged anyway in the end.
  • gentlemanorcusgentlemanorcus
    edited 2011-11-08 16:20:14
    ^^^ True. Still, I wish the relationship had developed a bit more. 

    I think the main reason a lot of people dislike Shinji is because they expected a hero, especially in a huge mecha show, or at least for him to get better (yes, yes, I know depression doesn't just go away, but my point stands). Instead they got some fucked up kid that's pretty much pathetic in every way. He pretty much spends all of End crouching in a corner. 
  • vandrovandro
    He who laments and can't let go of the past is forever doomed to solitude.
    When I said he succeeds I mean he happens to win against the angels in every ocassion. That was his role, the end of the world is brought about because of humans he had no relation to planned it.
  • MillerCrossMillerCross
    edited 2011-11-08 16:28:25
    You can change. You can.
    He had successes, but I wouldn't say that he succeeded. If that makes any sense.
    All the people he saved still ended up tanged anyway in the end.

    blah blah different endings blah blah different interpretations blah blah they can come back blah blah

    Shinji is still a failure as a hero, though. and I'd argue that it wasn't even just him who saved those people and that's not even touching in how instrumental (tee hee) was NERV in all of this.

    ^It still was his choice. The humans and Gods gave the world to Shinji to make a choice. And he said fuck everything.
  • vandrovandro
    He who laments and can't let go of the past is forever doomed to solitude.
    A role he was not meant to take, unlike being a Mech pilot.
  • MillerCrossMillerCross
    You can change. You can.
    Regardless of whether he wanted or was meant to do so, he had a choice, on whether to save the people he loved or leave them to instrumentality and its consequences.

    He chose column A and then withdrew, which was pretty much the worst case scenario as people not only became tang, but they would come back to a horrible wasteland where life has decayed and where the only possible hope for life might be eating the shit out of giant rei or drinking other people.

    that's...not a hero.
  • ForzareForzare
    edited 2011-11-08 16:39:39
    Till shade is gone, till water is gone, into the Shadow with teeth bared, screaming defiance with the last breath, to spit in Sightblinder’s eye on the last Day.
    Shinji was not a hero.

    He was an hero that took the world with him.
  • gentlemanorcusgentlemanorcus
    edited 2011-11-08 16:43:11
    Kind of going off topic (because as we all know, there are never enough Evangelion disscussions), but I think pathetic/whiny character can be amazing when written correctly.

    A whiny character I really like is Jezal from The First Law.

    He starts the books as a whiny, arrogant, self-pitying nobleman. Then, after his face is smashed with a mace, he tries to be a better person. And then he's declared the lost son of the dead king, and becomes king. He's pretty much a tool of the local powerful wizard, Bayaz. Near the end of the books, Jezal grows tired of being Bayaz' puppet, and rebels. Bayaz reveals Jezal is actually a whore's son he bought to be bred as a fake king, and pretty much calls him a pathetic tool (while making him feel intense pain). So Jezal pretty much accepts his fate as a tool. This part, in particular, stands out:

    "Jezal knelt there, clinging to the curtains like a child to his mother. He thought about how happy he had once been, and how little he had realized it. Playing cards, surrounded by friends, a bright future ahead of him. He dragged in a heavy breath, the tightness of tears creeping up his throat, spreading out around his eyes. Never in his life had he felt so alone. Son of Kings? He had no one and nothing. He spluttered and sniffed. His vision grew blurry. He shook with helpless sobs, his scarred lips trembling, the tears dripping down and spattering on the tiles. He wept with pain and fear, with shame and anger, with disappointment and helplessness. But Bayaz had been right. He was a coward. So most of all he wept with relief."

    ^ Was "an hero" intentional?
  • vandrovandro
    edited 2011-11-08 16:43:31
    He who laments and can't let go of the past is forever doomed to solitude.
    @Juan_Carlos: That's not an ideal hero, which is different.
  • MillerCrossMillerCross
    You can change. You can.
    If we are to define hero as, you know, what it is (AKA A character willing to fight for others and who displays self sacrifice in name of a greater good) then Shinji barely qualifies. His interests from the beginning are clearly selfish. (His father's approval first and foremost)

    Hell, even Anno intended for Shinji (And Misato, for that matter) to not be heroes. 
  • vandrovandro
    edited 2011-11-08 17:02:32
    He who laments and can't let go of the past is forever doomed to solitude.
    The definition of hero reflect the ideal of a hero. But as we see, there's the anti-hero concept which deals with characters who are considered heroes that don't fit in the mold. Like the Byronic hero, the bad boy and the reluctant hero. Also, are you gonna say a selfish hero can't exist?

    I am all for saying Shinji is not an archetypical hero, but that just doesn't exclude him from the concept entirely.
  • IaculusIaculus
    People have some really weird double standards for stuff like
    this. This is mostly something I've seen in the anime fandom, so I'll be
    using examples from there.

    Shinji Ikari, from Evangelion: Whines because everybody is dead/insane/horribly injured, and the world is going to hell. UNACCEPTABLE.

    Igarashi
    Ganta, from Deadman Wonderland: Whines because he's been framed for the
    murder of his classmates and best friends, and forced to fight in
    deathmatches for the enjoyment of people on the internet.     UNACCEPTABLE

    Ouma Shu, from Guilty Crown: Whines because he has friend issues. ACCEPTABLE.

    Something seems off here.

    First problem - you're assuming that it's the same people saying all these different things. Anime fandoms are not monoliths.
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