General World of Darkness thread

MadassAlex

they've said that it will start out being Vampire

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And my interest just dropped substantially, I'm afraid. I respect Vampire as a game, but it's never held any particular interest for me, standing only over Werewolf on those terms. I'd rather they have chosen Mage, Changeling or Hunter as the conceptual basis, because those are all far less-explored areas.

I understand that the decision was a smart one based on interest, Vampire easily being the most popular WoD variant, but I still wish they'd chosen something else.

ClockworkUniverse

Fair enough.

They are apparently planning on adding the others, though. I think Vampire just got first dibs because it's the one that has brand recognition outside tabletop gaming fans.

MadassAlex

Yeah, bringing in the market. A fair move.

ClockworkUniverse

The fact that EVE recently moved to freeware with cosmetic (I think/hope) purchaseables makes me hope it will be too.

ClockworkUniverse

I was just wondering: which oWoD line, after Vampire, is easiest to get into?

Malkavian

Hurm. The big five in oWoD are Vampire, Mage, Werewolf, Wraith, and Changeling. Except for Werewolf they're all more complex.

Werewolf is a sort hippie/eco-terrorist game where Werewolves are creatures of nature trying to prevent the destruction of wildlife and protect Gaia. It's not all luddite nonsense but it is definitely political in its points so that might be a turn-off.

Mage is rather confusing rules-wise but has the most engulfing of all of the games worlds in my mind and my favorite conceptual idea of why magic works the way it does without simply becoming a different type of science.

Wraith... is not easy to get to. Let's just say it's a dark game.

And Changeling... ah, Changeling. Happiest of the games in some ways, darker in others. Changeling is a game about faeries that feed on the power of imagination. The trouble is imagination in the WoD is dying out and so are they.

ClockworkUniverse

Hmmm...interesting. Not quite sure which I'd look into first...Mage sounds interesting.

Malkavian

Oh there's also Hunter, which I don't care much for but if you can find it look for Demon Hunter X which focuses more on eastern monsters but still has more interesting (though more anime style) take on Demon Hunters.

Man, I really wish Hunter was better because there's ideas in it I like, such as the hunters who fight with their faith in God as a literal weapon.

ClockworkUniverse

Like Grunfeld Bach from Bloodlines?

Malkavian

Exactly like him.

ClockworkUniverse

I see...pretty cool concept. Where does the execution fall apart?

Malkavian

There's a lot of really poor balance in the game and a real confusion of what the mood was supposed to be. Some fluff treats hunters as superheroes of justice, others treat them like ragtag conspiracy groups even at the highest level.

Which I'd be mostly okay with if the system wasn't a mess even by whitewolf standards. One level-one power lets you get somewhat better at tracking. Another level-one power lets you deal aggravated damage. I'm not even a game designer and the balance there is pretty obviously horrific.

All Nines

"Some fluff treats hunters as superheroes of justice, others treat them like ragtag conspiracy groups even at the highest level."

I still don't get the complaint that the default fluff can screw up a game, and, again, it's mostly where I take issue with your assessment of nWoD. Isn't the fluff/tone of a game ultimately supposed to be determined by the person telling the story, and, by extension, the gaming group?

Your comment on the system's issue is fair, though; tracking vs. aggravated damage? Hmm, I wonder what I'll pick.

ClockworkUniverse

Wow, that sounds...pretty awful. The alternate moods thing I'd be fine with, since it depends on the gaming group, but there's no excuse for that sort of balance issue.

Has anyone tried to do a rebalance?

Malkavian

^^Well, one of the strengths that Whitewolf has, and sells itself on, is it's well-realized worlds. I get that some people like to just have a set of tools to goof around with, but the world and fluff is really the main reason I love Mage: The Ascension so much.

^Hmmm, not to my knowledge. Might be worth looking into though.

ClockworkUniverse

The way I see it, Hunter is kinda a subseries. It takes place within the other oWoD lines. And the tone would really be determined by the specific characters involved.

MadassAlex

"such as the hunters who fight with their faith in God as a literal weapon" -- Malk

Please tell me this can be combined with swordsmanship. Lie if you have to.

All Nines

"Well, one of the strengths that Whitewolf has, and sells itself on, is it's well-realized worlds. I get that some people like to just have a set of tools to goof around with, but the world and fluff is really the main reason I love Mage: The Ascension so much."

And power to them for doing so. But I personally don't think that that should be a determining factor in the quality of the system itself--just a backing that groups may or may not incorporate into their games. My point is that judgment of a game's edition should treat the fluff and the system as separate entities so that they aren't lumped together. I mean, in the end, what's stopping a storyteller from adapting older concepts to a newer edition, or vice-versa? Rules? The books make it a point to say that story/fun is more important than rules in this game.

And I feel that calling this interpretation of the system "goof[ing] around" is a little gauche, though that's just me being a nitpick.

Malkavian

I didn't mean goof around negatively, trust me.

Also, I feel that a lot of the fluff actually is tied pretty heavily into the systems with whitewolf such as Blood Potency/Generation in Vampire and Paradox in Mage. In Mage for example paradox is a very different fluff mechanic and that shows up in the respective systsems.

All Nines

If a storyteller really wanted to, they could change/alter/mix that up, though--for instance, keep the idea of Generation as a determiner of status, but use BP for an approximation of power level.

Ultimately, I still feel that metaplot/fluff should only be lightly factored into system quality. For what it's worth, I should've elaborated a teensy bit more; I was initially looking for a comparison between the systems more from a mechanical standpoint.

Malkavian

Ah.

nWoD(Does anybody else purposefully call it enn-wad?) definitely has a better mechanical system, but it's still pretty messy in points, such as with fighting styles.

I guess I'm inverted with you in that I can deal with a bad system so long as I find the world and ideas enthralling.

Chagen

" but there's no excuse for that sort of balance issue."

>White Wolf
>Balance

You can have one or the other

ClockworkUniverse

^Exalted is supposed to be hilariously unbalanced. That's not the case for WoD.

Malkavian

It might not be intentional, but it's still fucking there. Chagen's statement is still spot-on.

All Nines

"nWoD(Does anybody else purposefully call it enn-wad?) definitely has a better mechanical system, but it's still pretty messy in points, such as with fighting styles."

I don't remember seeing anything that stood out too much from fighting styles. What irks you so much about them?

"I guess I'm inverted with you in that I can deal with a bad system so long as I find the world and ideas enthralling."

Yep. Just another case where our tastes are opposed, I suppose.

ClockworkUniverse

^^True, but I was under the impression he hadn't played WoD, so I felt the need to say it anyway.

Malkavian

Fighting styles basically take you leaps and bounds over everything else, even people with actual superpowers and even among themselves they're really silly in how they're powered out. There's a 'frenzied combat' style in the slasher books that players can take. One ability is to re-roll all the dice that didn't turn up as successes on the attack, and others that let you straight-up ignore damage.

^It's not that unreasonable to assume from Exalted that WoD would be unbalanced really.

All Nines

Ah. I haven't looked at any supplementary books yet, because you're guaranteed to find imbalance there. Boxing, Kung Fu, and Two-Weapon Fighting didn't strike me as terribly overpowered.

Malkavian

Kung Fu + Gangrel claws + clever statting =AHAHAHAHA FUCK YOUR RESILIENCE!

The werewolf builds are probably the worst, and others get really scary with the Hunter ability to blow willpower willy-nilly.

God I feel like such a fucking nerd.

All Nines

Isn't Resilience pretty weak anyway? Not that that isn't a problem, but if the worst that core fighting styles can do is neutralize one Discipline, I'm okay with that.