"Deep" and "Meaningful"

RedEyedAbyss

Since these two words have been hijacked by gits trying to justify their loli porn, er, trying to gain credibility in the eyes of unconvinced peers, how should I describe something that actually is deep and meaningful?

Chagen

"Since these two words have been hijacked by gits trying to justify their loli porn"

ITBEGINS.jpg

DonZabu

>implying this complaint isn't two centuries old by now

MillerCross

Only idiots hate and dismiss the words itself and not the misuse behind them. 

Just sayin'.

AHR

To be honest, the people who think they're writing deep and meaningful stuff are way more facepalm worthy.

Glowsquid

"how should I describe something that actually is deep and meaningful?  "

 

the something isn't Bit.Trip I HOPE.

RedEyedAbyss

It's more in general finding the fine line between worthwhile analysis and real-world connection the terms imply vs the buzzword use mentioned earlier.

"To be honest, the people who think they're writing deep and meaningful stuff are way more facepalm worthy."

Would George Orwell qualify? I mention him mostly because he said something about everything having some sort of hidden political message.

AHR

I like Mr. Blair...so I am probably not in the best place to judge.

Malkavian

I really hate the idea that stories shouldn't be 'about' anything. I don't know about 'deep' but I think every story should be meaningful in some way even if the meaning is only good triumphs over evil. 

MillerCross

I'm gonna one up you.

I think every story means something, in at least some level. And that that's something inherent to stories and can't be avoid it. 

Malkavian

I won't argue about that, but I dislike the idea that someone goes into a piece of fiction with the idea that it's 'just entertainment.'

RedEyedAbyss

^^What if the meaning is that there is no meaning?

^What about something like Freddy vs Jason?

AHR

I like the allegory approach.

It can be seen on both levels with ease, without a detriment to either quality.

MillerCross

^^What if the meaning is that there is no meaning?

That's impossible. And even if you manage to make or find a story without any intended meaning whatsoever behind it, then you can always infer one from the way it tells its story.

Death of the author~

AHR

No. It's called Anti-transcendentalism. It's been done. Moby Dick.

RedEyedAbyss

So I take it you're not a fan of absurdism?

Malkavian

What about something like Freddy vs Jason?

Hmm. Well, Nightmare on Elm Street was created out of a commentary on Suburban middle class deception and the broken elements of supposedly perfect families. Friday the 13th also has the morality tale aspect of pot-smokers gettign murdered and I think both of those come through pretty clearly and intentionally in Freddy Vs. Jason, even if the main point was to keep the original themes for the movie.

That said, it definitely is intended as a pop corn film no matter what analysis I do of it, as are many films I like.  I guess I should rephrase that my issue is with people who think this should be the default for film, literature, and music.

MillerCross

The way I see it is that even if you go for full dada mode, then you still use a logic and still want to communicate something to the audience.

Because that's all stories are. Communication and messages, only in a fictional format. 

Even if said communication is "lol, monkey chesse cloud dish blanket", that's still a meaning and a message. Just not a particularly meaningful one.

Malkavian

Man, after I do my series of Star Wars reviews I might do one with Nightmare on Elm Street....

RedEyedAbyss

Hmm...I suppose even things that look shallow do reflect some aspect of the human experience. I guess the question isn't so much about whether something has meaning or not as much as it is about how nuanced that perspective is. There is a difference between thinking the terrorists are evil just because vs thinking about what you have done to make the terrorists hate you. And then there's also the way the message is communicated, hence the infamous loli porn example.

Gelzo

I object to the assertion that a work can't be intellectually stimulating due to its genre, even if it is loli porn.

Whether a meaningful work often occurs in certain genres is another story.

LouieW

Abyss_Worm,

I agree with you about how "deep" and "meaningful" are kind of misused or rather overused. Do you think that the use of "dark" or "deconstruction" (when used in a strictly positive sense) could be grouped with those words too? Sometimes, I feel like people call things dark or label them as a deconstruction as if both of those things are always good traits when in reality it seems to depend on both your tastes and the execution within the work itself. I am interested to hear if you agree though because there is a possibility that I just have a bias or something.

As for "deep" stuff, I feel like some of the better works are ones that can have a good bit under the surface, but are not focused on talking about it at every turn. I guess I would say that I like things that are kind of "deep" without the author feeling the need to really force the issue if that makes any sense.

Counterclock

A story can only be meaningful when the people reading it are looking for meaning.

MillerCross

^Indeed, a meaningful experience might be a rather inconsequential one for others. It all depends on context.

InsanityAddict

Meh, lolipr0n can be connected to kawaii aesthetics, postwar trauma and gender politics. You could make a comparison between Humbert Humbert and the rhetoric employed by loli apologists. It's not very hard to make a meaningful analysis of the genre, but the fanbase probably wouldn't like the conclusion.

That said, I've read a paper on Turning of the Screw which turned it into a story about the allure of precocious sexuality, so you might still do a positive reading of the genre if you try hard enough.