"Diversity for diversity's sake"

Malkavian · 2011-10-08 11:48:52

I'm confused as to why this is a bad thing.

The implication with this being a bad thing is that you can't have a black/asian/hispanic/whatever character has to have some reason for being that.

But white people don't need that reason?

So no. I'm not against diversity for diversity's sake. You don't need a reason to make a character black any more than a black person needs a reason to be black.

Counterclock · 2011-10-08 11:52:16

Usually people who go with Diversity for diversity's sake make poor characters that only reflect common stereotypes associated with that group.

RedEyedAbyss · 2011-10-08 11:55:18

"Diversity for diversity's sake"

I imagined Umbridge saying that for some reason.

Icalasari · 2011-10-08 11:55:20

Yeah, it's usually when it's done wrong

Also I initially thought this would be about food

Gelzo · 2011-10-08 11:56:06

Sometimes it's more realistic to have a diverse group of characters, or it's at least not strange to see a minority or two in that position.

But when the cast is in the middle of Kansas and looks like goddamn Minoriteam, that's where it gets a little weird.

RedEyedAbyss · 2011-10-08 11:57:22

"But when the cast is in the middle of Kansas and looks like goddamn Minoriteam"

Heh. Americans. You should see the University of Alberta.

Counterclock · 2011-10-08 11:57:30

Technically speaking, shoehorning in diversity is always a bad idea, if the creator can't naturally include diversity in the first place, why do you think forcing them to add it would be a good idea?

Malkavian · 2011-10-08 11:57:43

Clock: Yeah, but that's poor and offensive writing, which is a different issue altogether.

^No one should be forced to add it, but people reacting poorly because some franchise wants to expand its diversity speaks of xenophobia to me.

^^^I've met non-whites from Kansas. C'est vrai!

Gelzo · 2011-10-08 11:59:15

^^^What about it?

Counterclock · 2011-10-08 12:00:06

@Malk. Name one series that tried the diversity thing without resorting to stereotypes.

Malkavian · 2011-10-08 12:00:53

X-men.

Star Trek

Teen Titans

NuDoctor Who

Counterclock · 2011-10-08 12:03:14

And those were built in from the ground up, you said when a series tries "adding" the diversity element.

"people reacting poorly because some franchise wants to expand its diversity"

Right here!

Answer it!

Right now!

MillerCross · 2011-10-08 12:04:24

Community.

Gelzo · 2011-10-08 12:04:33

In those shows it makes sense in the story for the case to be diverse. Mutant powers are all over the globe in X-Men, and in Star Trek the Earth is advanced enough for there to be decent education available for a lot more people so the best of the best would probably come from a variety of cultures.

Counterclock · 2011-10-08 12:05:37

Never seen it.

Malkavian · 2011-10-08 12:05:43

^^^^Ultimate Spider-man

Angel

And NuDoctor Who wasn't built from the ground up.

^^And in other shows it makes sense because the world isn't comprised solely of white people.

Also, until Chris Claremont came in X-men was an all-whitey affair.

Another example of good diversity for the sake of diversity is making Ben Grimm of the fantastic four explicitly Jewish. It's not important to his character, but it's a nice bit of extension that brings his character more 'reality'.

Though since both Lee and Kirby were Jewish it'd be hard to be offended by it.

AHR · 2011-10-08 12:06:57

~~Ical: That's because in her speech, she talked about how we must avoid "progress for progess' sake."~~

Counterclock · 2011-10-08 12:07:24

Angel has the black guy be an uneducated Gangster.

It's obvious you're smoking something.

RedEyedAbyss · 2011-10-08 12:07:57

"What about it?"

The idea that non-whites seem out of place in a given location. Then again, Canada is a country where multiculturalism is government policy, so maybe I was wrong to pick on the US specifically. After all, racist political parties carry a fair share of votes in European countries.

Malkavian · 2011-10-08 12:09:45

^^Uneducated? He's seen reading and having a wide breadth of knowledge about books, movies, and comic books of all things throughout the show. And he's not so much a gangster as is he is the head of a group of people trying to survive. He's also not so much a gangster so much as a leader of a group of monster hunters. You never see them get into gang wars or do anything other than steal to eat.

He's also a fully realized character, ergo not a stereotype.

And even you think that's a bad example NuWho went out of its way to include racial and sexual diversity, the x-men reboot in the seventies was the same, and people love those.

Icalasari · 2011-10-08 12:10:11

^^^^ Wait, what does that have to do with my post?

Gelzo · 2011-10-08 12:10:50

Maybe they wanted an uneducated gangster character and decided he'd be black instead of wanting a black character and deciding he'd be an uneducated gangster?

When considering the population of uneducated American gangsters, a disproportionate amount are going to be black just because of how the economy works out.

AHR · 2011-10-08 12:11:25

Whoops. I meant Abyss worm.

Abyss: That's because in her speech, she talked about how we must avoid "progress for progess' sake."

Counterclock · 2011-10-08 12:13:24

Funny how on the last season, a lot of his angst came from the fact that he wasn't as intelligent as a lot of the others.

Oh hey, It was also used as a plot point that he wasn't as smart as the others.

Fully realized character or not, they still introduced him through the veil of stereotypes.

Gelzo · 2011-10-08 12:15:10

@Malk: Well, places have different statistics. It's not that it feels wrong for someone of a certain race to be somewhere, it's just that it seems unlikely for a handful of people selected at random to not have a significant representation of the local racial majority.

RedEyedAbyss · 2011-10-08 12:15:23

^^^I now wonder if there was ever a politician that spoke against "diversity for diversity's sake".

Malkavian · 2011-10-08 12:16:42

It wasn't that he wasn't as intelligent as the others, it's that he didn't just want to be seen as the man who was only good for his brawn.

However, let's put that aside as we don't agree on the Angel example and I doubt we'll make headway.

You can't really argue that Mickey or Martha in NuWho were stereotypes. Or Cyborg in the Teen Titans reboot. Or Miles Morales as the new Ultimate Spider-man, or Ben Grimm being made Jewish later on.

^^Yeah sure, but I don't see it as that unreasonable to say 'okay yeah, Kansas is pretty white but let's make Clark's friend a black guy just for a bit of change.'

Holy shit, I just realized Smallville of all things adds diversity without using stereotypes. Pete is made black and Lana is made asian.

Of course they're terrible characters but you can't really argue they're stereotypes.

MillerCross · 2011-10-08 12:16:43

Funny how on the last season, a lot of his angst came from the fact that he wasn't as intelligent as a lot of the others.

Because he was not a lawyer and was out of his element. That is not lack of intelligence. That is just lack of preparedness.

Oh hey, It was also used as a plot point that he wasn't as smart as the others.

The plot point was not that. The plot point was that he thought he was not as smart as the others and thus, he made the whole deal with W&H for more intelligence.

Fully realized character or not, they still introduced him through the veil of stereotypes.

You do realize you're talking about the fifth season, 4 seasons after Gunn got in the show, right?

Counterclock · 2011-10-08 12:19:04

Gunn was introduced as a gang-member, y/n?

Malkavian · 2011-10-08 12:19:48

n. He was introduced as the leader of a group of homeless vampire hunters.

^^It wasn't even intelligence. It was just legal know-how.

AHR · 2011-10-08 12:19:55

Yeah, even I was pretty surprised about how stereotypical Gunn was when I first met him.

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