Harem anime

vandro

I do wish that too. GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONZOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Malkavian

I have to say the second season opening is just so confounding but so amusing at the same time.

Oh man. Dirty Pair references. Stop making me like you, R+V.

MillerCross

If that were the case, then I can say that every choice ever is based on benefits, now, I can then add that when I mean benefits, I mean gameplay benefits.

I just think that a common problem when it comes to choice in gaming is not "What would I do if I were this guy?" so much as "What will I get out of this? A good story? A new sword? etc etc"

And this is completely horrible. >

Malkavian

Roleplaying in the traditional sense is always a difficulty in vidya because you're always looking at stat benefits. In a tabletop a GM can always 'HAHAHAHA FUCK YOU NO'

Also holy shit I just realized Moka's sister in R+V is an Asuka.

MadassAlex

If anyone watched the link I posted, that was discussed.

Basically, it's calculation vs. choice.

In the case of a calculation, a decision is made based on the benefit to the player. Any decision that has a clearly beneficial choice isn't so much a choice. It's the illusion of choice. One real-life example of a calculation is deciding which supermarket to go to. Each supermarket stocks exactly the same things, but one has cheaper prices. In this case, there's a clear answer. Your mental process was not a choice, but a logical, mathematical calculation.

A choice is when the benefits of a decision are not immediately clear. Games with morality bars would have lots of choice if they didn't present the mathematical outcome to the player, for instance, because they'd force the player to make value judgements rather than working towards a certain kind of reputation or certain character benefits. On an even simpler level, Super Mario Brothers gives us a great example of choice via mushrooms.

You'll note that mushrooms move to the right. Away from you. Towards danger. But if you grab one, you can take an additional hit. So is gaining that extra resilience worth chasing the mushroom into the unknown landscape beyond the edges of the screen? There is no straight, clear answer to that. It's a choice.

Malkavian

I saw the link. I agree with a lot of it, but there's still always going to be the limitation of game parameters until we build a holodeck or something.

MillerCross

I'd argue that you'd still need to move right both because of the time limit and because that's the only direction you can move in in a Mario game, but that'd be missing the point so...

vandro

I disagree with the mushroom example, there is no choice in that case either: THERE'S A FUCKING TIMER THAT'S GONNA KILL YOU IF YOU DON'T RACE TO THE RIGHT END OF THE LEVEL. I watched the show every week without fault during the escapist run, I'll see if I can catch up.

----

"What would I do if I were this guy?"

Simple: if the character is a blank state, then I would simply make him a goody-two-shoes, as in fallout. If the character is not a blank state and possesses predefined motivations, and characterization, I will try to follow that characterization to the end.

----
FUCK YOU, NINJA!

MillerCross

Oh, you can do that, but game designing by itself does not encourage that, does it? It explicitly does so, yes, but implicitly? Not so much.

vandro

Which part of my argument are you talking about?

Malkavian

Also in a lot of roleplaying games not getting everyone to be bestest friends with you just feels like not getting 100%

R+V: Aww they got rid of the magical girl vampire transformation. ;_;

vandro

You mean the second season or the manga?

Malkavian

Second season. I enjoyed it because it was an entertainingly dark take on the magic girl transformation, even if it clashed with the rest of the show.

vandro

Dark take on the magical girl transformation, DarkerThanBlack season 2. Suo Pavlichenko.

MillerCross

Which part of my argument are you talking about?

Simple: if the character is a blank state, then I would simply make him a goody-two-shoes, as in fallout. If the character is not a blank state and possesses predefined motivations, and characterization, I will try to follow that characterization to the end.

vandro

I don't care if it encourages it or not. I do it because I like to do that.

MillerCross

Yes, but does that answer my complaint? >

vandro

Fuck it, just go play assassin's creed, that's the only game where acting out of character kills you.

Malkavian

It's actually what I liked. Morality is often constrained to personal values and I find it much stronger to go 'You're breaking character!' than 'You're a bad boy!'

InsanityAddict

Minor nitpick, but the mushroom actually moves dependent on which side you hit the block.

Also, the reason harem animu can never rise above 'good for its genre' is not the flawed premise, but the fact that its audience laps formula up, not deconstrunction or reconstruction or other spins on the standard plot.

Noimporta

Hey, there are some Harem shows that are actually good... there's Nadesico and Ouran, and I guess Vandread was alright.

All Nines

Thread Hop:

"I mean I know they're supposed to be self-insert wish fulfillment, but some positive qualities and character traits would help make them actually interesting."

Yup. Pretty much the biggest problem with harem shows. There's nothing wrong, or unbelievable, about a bunch of girls all pining for the same guy . . . if he's actually a magnetic person. Most people who watch anime harem anime aren't nearly attractive or likable enough to have multiple girls fighting over them, so making the main characters wish-fulfillment for those guys breaks willing suspension of disbelief.

But I don't mind the lack of conflict in harem series; I wish they were more often handled as slice-of-life, where events aren't really as big a deal. At least then, it would make sense for a completely boring, inoffensive main character and secondary characters who'll forgive him for anything. Of course, if the main character actually has a damn personality and thinks as if he were his own character, conflict still makes sense, and I might want to see it there.

Another thing I mind is that the writers always have to find some way for the main character to accidentally feel up the other girls in increasingly contrived manners. I don't mind fanservice for fanservice's sake, but why does it have to involve the main character somersaulting down a flight of stairs and crashing his face into a girl's chest? It's not funny anymore, and it's more crude than sexy.

"The only modern harem manga I keep reading is Rosario+Vampire, it at least has a plot that's tangential to the harem antics, which are getting more and more serious as time goes by."

See, I tried reading it, but it just didn't work out. I'd rather watch an anime of it, but I know that the anime is constantly lambasted, so that doesn't work.

vandro

So in other words, you can't read sequential art?

All Nines

-_-

I can read sequential art just fine (hello, 57 volume One Piece collection), it just takes forever to read manga on websites because of page loading times (and it's not something I like wasting time on), and I don't want to blow another hundred-something dollars on a manga that's not worth that much. Or sit around in some bookstore reading it.

Vivi

Coming soon. All new Psychological Horror Harem anime.

vandro

" it just takes forever to read manga on websites"

Really? I don't feel it.

DYRE

it just takes forever to read manga on websites because of page loading times

1. Download the scanlations of the manga.
2. Download and install CDisplay
3. ???
4. Profit!

MillerCross

I don't see how not being interested in manga means I can't read sequential art.

vandro

I wasn't implying anything, I was making a simple question. It does bother me people like to imply or assume, when I make a question, please, take it a face value, there are no lines to be read in between.

MillerCross

Implications are not always intentional.