Sex toys for women are sexy/empowering/good. Sex toys for men are creepy/'bad'. (NSFW)

MillerCross

I just read "Fascinating" in the voice of a Russian scientist. Don't know if that'll offend something else.

And hardly, Ian. I like discussing this kinda thing. I just don't go to places where this discussions might happen because I loath how they often turn up. 

Well if I remember right, the image of masculinity that was being propagated was not focussed on commitment to a family/woman, so there a lot of men went 'AWOL' from women who had their children, leading to a lot of single mothers.

Yeah, see, that's actually a common sort of stereotype around here. Men are encouraged to sleep around whereas women are encouraged to marry and form a family.

There's an old linguistical joke about it. Basically, the idea is that "zorra" (AKA: A female fox) is seen as an insult, and "zorro" (AKA: A male fox) is seen as "Cunning and clever". Rinse and repeat for other various words across the language.

It bears metnioning that this uses are mostly seen here in Colombia.

Nova

There's an Oriental belief stating that masturbation releases energy, while sex between partners involves exchanging energy so there is no loss.

Not really relevant, but I think it's worth noting.

IanExMachina

^^

Again FASCINATING. (If the UK had funds to spare I'd apply for a research grant.)

I mean whilst there is a double standard (stud is good slut is bad etc, so men should sleep around) it isn't as strong as seen in South America, also the homophobia is a whole lot less.

Whilst your experience is from Colombia I'd hazard the idea that the general idea spans more than one SA culture/country.

If you don't mind the questioning, how/why did you/your mother introduce acceptance of homosexuality/transgender?

^

Do you have a link of some kind Cygan?

As it sounds like it could be the basis of interesting sex/gender relations.

MillerCross

If you don't mind the questioning, how/why did you/your mother introduce acceptance of homosexuality/transgender?

She didn't introduced me to it, per se, so much as her attitudes around such people (Being friends with them, having no problems with their sexual preference) 

But she never explicitly told me how I should see the world. She just encouraged me when she thought I was (morally) right and discouraged me when I was (morally) wrong. 

I mean whilst there is a double standard (stud is good slut is bad etc, so men should sleep around) it isn't as strong as seen in South America, also the homophobia is a whole lot less.

Oh, don't get me wrong, there is homophobia. A man who sleeps with other men is seen as female and all that, for starters.

Nova

I tried looking it up but all I can find is porn ;-;

IanExMachina

^^

So due to 'exposure' it 'filtered down'/was taught?

>Oh, don't get me wrong, there is homophobia. A man who sleeps with other men is seen as female and all that, for starters.

Oops I missed out 'Here' I was comparing UK a rough account of SA.

But yes the seen as female is a crucial part of the masculinity ideal.

Again if you don't mind the question, what other social ideas/pressures did you have expressed towards you relating to masculinity/homosexuality?

^

Win win?

I'll give searching a go myself see If I turn up anything other than porn.

Nova

I don't like porn.

Yeah, try doing that I wish you luck in your non-porn endeavour.

IanExMachina

Not even classy porn, with a story and everything? 

Searching myself with several permutations at the relevant keywords end up with porn or un-cited random forum comments

MillerCross

So due to 'exposure' it 'filtered down'/was taught?

You could say that. My mother couldn't, say, turn off the TvT everytime the subject was brought up, but (This is pure conjecture, mind) she felt that approaching me and telling me that it exists would both insult my intelligence and would teach me that this was a big deal in terms of humanities (AKA: Weird) so...she didn't. It's all a guess, of course. Based on what she has told me about how she raised me and whatnot. But it could be she thought it was too awkward and lemme learn on my own or until I approached her.

Again if you don't mind the question, what other social ideas/pressures did you have expressed towards you relating to masculinity/homosexuality?

To put a bit of a mundane example, I remember making a thread here where I told the story of a random dude in the steet who told me to cut my hair because "According to God, only women shall wear their hair long"

There's also the whole "You should do exercise cuz only women are weak and stuff" angle. But admittedly, it isn't really that prominent. I have seen it, mind. 

Nova

Searching myself with several permutations at the relevant keywords end up with porn or un-cited random forum comments

I told you

Stormtroper

I thought it was OK for men (or at least young men) to masturbate, while it wasn't for women, both in the US and in Venezuela.

Heh, my mother used to do that, actually. Funny thing is, I never
thought much of it. I mean, as I grew up I realized that most of the
time, she shut me up with such things because I used to care if I was
called that and it'd stop me.

Meanwhile my mother would consider that as an extremely harsh and insulting accusation that crosses the line. She hasn't changed much since.

Whilst your experience is from Colombia I'd hazard the idea that the general idea spans more than one SA culture/country.

Definitely.

IanExMachina

^^^

So whilst you don't know the true reason, your mother wasn't very involved with your views on homosexuality/transgender?

Ah I remember you mentioning that somewhere here on IJBM.

So extra question: How much do you feel religion played a part in your understanding of sexuality (including homosexuality/transgender)?

^^

I would really like to find the general idea.

But you know porn will be the compensation. Haha. (I say that but I'm SOCIOLOGY mode so it isn't much of compensation).

^

>I thought it was OK for men (or at least young men) to masturbate, while it wasn't for women, both in the US and in Venezuela.

Could you expand a tiny bit please?

MillerCross

I thought it was OK for men (or at least young men) to masturbate, while it wasn't for women, both in the US and in Venezuela.

Oh, that is indeed how it works here too. I was referring to grown men specifically. 

Sorry for any confusions.

RocketDude

@Cygan: I heard about that myself, but I can't remember the name.

Might have been connected to Buddhism...

Nova

I would really like to find the general idea.

Me too

I heard about that myself, but I can't remember the name.

Might have been connected to Buddhism...

Buddhism?

Let's ask Aondeug!

MillerCross

So whilst you don't know the true reason, your mother wasn't very involved with your views on homosexuality/transgender?

Not really. In fact, I'd say that I didn't notice she was as tolerant as she was till a couple of weeks back when I met one of her transgendered/crossdresser friends (I'm fuzzy on his gender, actually. For one, he didn't ask us to refer to him as male. For another he did a pretty good female impression. --shrug--)

So extra question: How much do you feel religion played a part in your understanding of sexuality (including homosexuality/transgender)?

Religion around here has always been of the "homosexuals shouldn't marry" kind. I remember a time when I was watching TV with my folks and such a statement was made. I said that it was pretty dumb and that there really isn't a point to it. Or something along those lines.

I've pretty much always questioned religion, though. So I can't exactly say it has affected my understanding of the world. But that is pretty much the only particular contact with religion and sexuality I remember.

IanExMachina

Thanks Juan.

I have to sleep now but talking to you and questioning you has been FASCINATING.

I'm gonna bodge together a survey tomorrow/earlythiscomingweek that should be interesting, esp as a few points I've pulled from this thread could lead to interesting questions.

MillerCross

No worries, Ian.

Waltzy

Just going to chime in something that occurred to me, but the nature of the toys could have something to do with it.

If a woman/gay man is buying a sex toy for their own use, it's usually to shove into their body.

A straight man's sex toys are mostly something for him to shove himself into.

The former case can be seen as those individuals getting something that puts them in a submissive role for sexual acts, and the latter case is for what could be seen as a dominant role.

If one would imagine both scenarios, the idea of someone, especially a woman, pleasuring themselves in something typically thought of as a "submissive" way vs. a guy going and doing something "dominant" like getting something so he can penetrate it, which would be more favorably received by society? A man using sex toys can be warped as "ugh he's just gotta stick his dick in something to be macho" by less open-minded individuals.

Stormtroper

Could you expand a tiny bit please?

(Sorry for the late answer) It's the thing about how women should be pure and reserved, while men should FUCK the SHIT out of lots of women. This is translates as such for masturbation.

captainbrass

The root of this is probably the notion that male sexuality is inherently threatening and therefore weird and creepy unless expressed within the normal family set-up, combined with a dose of the idea that loners are dangerous weirdos (and that if you're not married/ in a relationship, you're a loner).

Having railed against such social prejudice, I have to say that I once watched a documentary about guys who owned sex dolls. Jesus, they were creepy, and not in a way I could imagine a woman who owned a lot of vibrators being creepy. So I'm in two minds about this kind of thing, to be honest. 

Nyktos

Sex dolls are inherently creepy. Sex dolls with dicks for women, if they exist, are no less creepy.

The fair comparison to vibrators would be fleshlights, I guess.

Nova

Yeah, I think there is a difference between a small rod people stick between their legs and what is essentially a fake woman.

captainbrass

The idea of having a relationship with a fake person is definitely creepy. Actually, there's an element of this even in situations where it's socially acceptable e.g. kids' dolls or ventiloquists' dummies often turn up in horror movies.

Having said that, if I bought some kind of male sex aid I think that would definitely be a - "What the hell has become of my life?" - moment for me. 

ClockworkUniverse

Maybe in the time before the magic of Internet shopping it would have been.

Nova

There's still a personal taboo about it, though. Not so much about book stores, but can you honestly imagine being able to buy it and not thinking of it as kinda ronery?

ClockworkUniverse

Well, no, but I'd think that about any masturbatory aid, regardless of gender.

Nova

I guess that may be true.

I do not know, it was just an idea. Sorry, I will go delete it now.

InsanityAddict

A tad late, but the idea that fapping(or at least letting it shoot out) wastes life-energy is Taoistic.

MillerCross

(Sorry for the late answer) It's the thing about how women should be pure and reserved, while men should FUCK the SHIT out of lots of women. This translates as such for masturbation.

To expand further on this: Men  are supposed to like sex and women are suposed to like it but not do it too much cause lolol double standrads about purity and stuff.

Having said that, if I bought some kind of male sex aid I think that would definitely be a - "What the hell has become of my life?" - moment for me. 

Agreed. Mostly cause I think that it implies I'm paying money for my sexual gratification which means that I consider it important enough to actually waste resources on it and it also implies that I am not interacting with people enough to actually pursue a relationship. 

Regardless of how private the adquisition was, I'd feel awful about myself. 

I do not know, it was just an idea. Sorry, I will go delete it now.

Could you please not do that? It's annoying to try and catch up with a thread and see replies that don't mean nothing. Either delete the whole derail or keep it all, but deleting one thing and seeing the rest is pretty much in bad form and hurts readability.