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Derails

NovaNova
edited 2011-08-27 23:49:41 in IJBM meta
If you must eat a phoenix, boil it, do not roast it. This only encourages their mischievous habits.
Use this thread please.
«1

Comments

  • VorpyVorpy
    ☭Unstoppable Sex Goddess☭
    http://itjustbugsme.com/forums/discussion/comment/151161#Comment_151161

    And I was going to blank out my angerposts but you locked the thread before I could. And I am sorry for unleashing more anger than what was needed for what the thread was going towards.
  • ViviVivi
    edited 2011-08-27 23:51:41
    $80+ per session
    Locking the thread was unnecessary.

    Unnecessary locks happen a lot here.
  • ClockworkUniverseClockworkUniverse
    OOOooooOoOoOOoo, I'm a ghoOooOooOOOost!
    I like potatoes.

    I think the problem here is that derails in small doses aren't a problem, so when a specific derail spreads, nobody notices it's a problem until they're annoyed about it.
  • IcalasariIcalasari
    No rainbow star
    ...I have a bad feeling that this thread will get derailed...

    Anyways, yeah, they can be irritating depending on the circumstances
  • MadassAlexMadassAlex
    edited 2011-08-27 23:52:54
    One foot in front of the other, every day.
    In respects to the specific context, I don't think the gnashing of teeth was halfway appropriate as a reaction to something that, while not necessarily appropriate itself, wasn't really a big issue.

    For me the issue is that something reasonably innocent was met with hate and personal remarks that the instigators of are not accounting for. I have no issue with the fact that complaints were brought up, but I think the way in which they were expressed was much worse than anything anyone did in the first place.
  • WaltzyWaltzy
    edited 2011-08-27 23:53:11
    Okay, copypasting what I was writing before it got locked....

    > Ignorance of their behaviour does not change the
    fact that their behaviour is still bad, though. We do have a guideline
    that you should not wilfully derail a thread.

    I can agree that intentional derails ideally
    shouldn't happen. But since it's sort of a way of life around the
    forums, I can see how people would get lax about it, especially when
    moderative action isn't employed in the case of derails.

    I maintain that at the very least a firm-tap-on-shoulder should be the
    first resort, rather than...well, whatever this thread was.
  • ForzareForzare
    Till shade is gone, till water is gone, into the Shadow with teeth bared, screaming defiance with the last breath, to spit in Sightblinder’s eye on the last Day.
    Like I said in the other thread:

    Forced derails are bad. Doesn't matter what the subject of the derail is.

    I do think flirting derails are worse, though. A forced derail about mythology is not going to make me leave a thread without a moment's thought. A flirting derail is too. I recognize that that is subjective. The biggest problem with them is the frequency.

    I have absolutely no problem with natural derails.

    And yes, someone should have spoken up sooner, me included. That doesnt make it less of a problem.

  • ViviVivi
    $80+ per session
    Like it was said in that thread, the derail was both the main issue and not the main issue.

    The derail turned into a derail that attacked flirty derails. Derailception.
  • NovaNova
    If you must eat a phoenix, boil it, do not roast it. This only encourages their mischievous habits.
    And I was going to blank out my angerposts but you locked the thread before I could. And I am sorry for unleashing more anger than what was needed for what the thread was going towards.

    I will send you a PM about that.

    For me the issue is that something reasonably innocent was met with hate and personal remarks that the instigators of are not accounting for. I have no issue with the fact that complaints were brought up, but I think the way in which they were expressed was much worse than anything anyone did in the first place. 

    That is true. As I said, i would have preferred it if it had been brought up in private with the moderators.

    Locking the thread was unnecessary.

    Unnecessary locks happen a lot here.

    The thread lock is only temporary, while this lasts. Then I will unlock it, etc.

    But basically, what INUH said:

    I think the problem here is that derails in small doses aren't a problem, so when a specific derail spreads, nobody notices it's a problem until they're annoyed about it.
  • MillerCrossMillerCross
    You can change. You can.
    My problem with the way this thread turned out was

    * An attack on a couple of posters by implying they were creepy and annoying
    * It all was the result of petty grudges and dislikes that instead of being pointed out to the participants were simply shut up cause that's what the users in this place always do.
    * The fact that the reason of annoyance is basically something that is very common taken to the natural conclusion of it being common.
    * The implication that derails are now "Depriving of an environment of open discussion" (Quoting Everest here), which begs the question of "What is a good derail, then? If people like derails and they don't mind them, then what derails should be accepted and which ones shouldn't be accepted"? Leading to...
    * A derail being pervasive means it's a bad derail? Very well, then. How about a derail that brings up open discussion?
    * It's the topic of the derail being repetitive bad or it's the actions of the derailers bad?

    And there we are. Anyway, I'm honestly logging off. I feel like the site doesn't need me and much less now. Wanna solve your problems? Fine. But don't count on me suggesting how you do it. Because I'm honestly tired that the userbase members have to clean up time and time again because nobody else can have the foresight to actually think and analyse the consequences of every action and turn on the forum

    Too hard? Guess what. It's your duty as administrators. Either start up or don't do it. Because this? This is sickening. Not because what we did was right (I don't think it is) but forming a shitstorm over something so minor and dumb and unimportant? That...that is just a new level of petty.

    So...whatever. Yes, I mad. I'm willing to admit that much. But I'm also tired and I'm also sick of so many things going on here under the surface, like how certain attitudes go unpunished whereas others are punished because a couple of people are honestly worried about the place's image or whatever instead of simply trying to avoid this shitstorms which make us look far much more worse in my opinion
  • NoimportaNoimporta
    Hey, guys, guys. Context for the blissfully unaware?
  • ClockworkUniverseClockworkUniverse
    OOOooooOoOoOOoo, I'm a ghoOooOooOOOost!
    See the second half of the locked thread on the first page.
  • VorpyVorpy
    ☭Unstoppable Sex Goddess☭
    Please don't leave for good Juan. I want you to stay. I know that there is scummy shit growing on IJBM that we aren't noticing, but you are one of the many few people I do coming to IJBM to see and what not.
  • NoimportaNoimporta
    See the second half of the locked thread on the first page.
    That's what I was trying to avoid.

    Please don't leave for good Juan. I want you to stay. I know that there
    is scummy shit growing on IJBM that we aren't noticing, but you are one
    of the many few people I do coming to IJBM to see and what not.
    Cut that out.
  • MillerCrossMillerCross
    You can change. You can.
    For the record, and because I've been receiving PMs for some reason and because I wanna make it clear.

    I said I'd "Log off". Not leave the fuck out of the site or whatever. I just need a break. I'm not feeling well and arguing about how to run a site with people with whom it seems I'd disagree from the get go is not gonna make me feel better

    @Vorpy: Agreed with Noimporta. It's not funny and it doesn't make you look as cool as you seem to think it is.
  • MadassAlexMadassAlex
    One foot in front of the other, every day.
    I don't think it's fair to put the blame on staff for a userbase reaction, but all the same, see what science has done? Juan's a good member of the forum.
  • NovaNova
    If you must eat a phoenix, boil it, do not roast it. This only encourages their mischievous habits.
    Hey, guys, guys. Context for the blissfully unaware?

    Gloriousleader posted, telling them to knock it off with the flirting because it's kind of creept and annoying.

    I flagged it and asked the other mods what they thought, and they agreed that the derail tendency towards that type of derail was getting too pervasive and out of hand, so we posted in there to try and tell them to knock it off with the flirting.

    At that point, I'm not quite sure what happened, but I think I got in an argument with people as to whether or not that behaviour was bad, Alex pointed out that it probably should have been done not in public, and something else that I'm not even sure of.
  • MillerCrossMillerCross
    You can change. You can.
    I don't think it's the staff fault. Not completely. But to me, it seems that they're going out of their way to avoid the blame.
  • ForzareForzare
    edited 2011-08-28 00:17:19
    Till shade is gone, till water is gone, into the Shadow with teeth bared, screaming defiance with the last breath, to spit in Sightblinder’s eye on the last Day.
    I think most of the people have a point.

    I think that how common forced derails are is a problem, and the people who were always derailing threads into the same subject are partially to blame.

    I think the fact that it bothered everyone and no one reported it (including me) was a problem, and we have just as much share of the blame.

    I think that everyone (including me) handled it badly in the last thread.

    I think this is something we can all talk about like adults and get past this.
  • NovaNova
    If you must eat a phoenix, boil it, do not roast it. This only encourages their mischievous habits.
    Basically, though, my original intent was just to chime in and say something along the lines of:

    Counterclock, Juan, Malkavian (I had forgotten who else was involved at that time), please stop the flirting derails across multiple threads. It's bad posting behaviour, and kind of irritating.

    If I'd had my way, I would have ended it with that, but people posted responses, etc.

    If people will excuse me for a few minutes, I'm going to confer with the mods.
  • All NinesAll Nines
    edited 2011-08-28 00:18:47
    Has friends besides tanks now
    The arguing was mostly over a combination of deciding if derails are actually bad and deciding which ones are bad, I think. It could have been a more productive discussion if there weren't so many obnoxious argumentative techniques in use.
  • MalkavianMalkavian
    MORONS! I'VE GOT MORONS ON MY PAYROLL!
    So I go play a game of Apples to Apples and what do I come to.

    Honestly I've got nothing to add other than I was unaware people were bothered and will cut it out.
  • GelzoGelzo
    Pony Sleuth
    I missed a lot of the context, but this seems like something that people can come to cool down about.

    Nonetheless, this definitely isn't the first time there's been (what I think are) legitimate complaints about how the moderation has handled things. That might be worth looking into. I'm wondering how things would go if mod discussions were made public.
  • ForzareForzare
    Till shade is gone, till water is gone, into the Shadow with teeth bared, screaming defiance with the last breath, to spit in Sightblinder’s eye on the last Day.
    this seems like something that people can come to cool down about.

    Agreed.

    Nonetheless,
    this definitely isn't the first time there's been (what I think are)
    legitimate complaints about how the moderation has handled things. That
    might be worth looking into.
    I have had some problems with the moderation in the past, but I think it's been moving in a better direction since the SA thread.  I'm not sure how the mod team mishandled this, though.  Moving the derail discussion into it's own thread seems like the right choice to me.

    I'm wondering how things would go if mod
    discussions were made public.
    I'm not really sure how much of a good thing that would end up being...
  • All NinesAll Nines
    edited 2011-08-28 00:39:14
    Has friends besides tanks now
    I don't think most of the people in the thread were actually that worked up about it. I know I wasn't.

    But I agree that the moderation failed to address the issue of the multiple flirtation derails in a timely manner. I can't speak for the others, but I was mostly indifferent to it, if creeped out, and didn't realize how much others disliked it. That's why I didn't speak up. And because I didn't notice quite how prevalent it was until today.

    And I really doubt the atmosphere/productivity of the site would improve if mod discussions were public.

    ^ I think our biggest, and our only really notable, failing is that we did not actually address the issue until right about now, even though people held animosity towards this trend long before now.
  • ForzareForzare
    Till shade is gone, till water is gone, into the Shadow with teeth bared, screaming defiance with the last breath, to spit in Sightblinder’s eye on the last Day.
    But I agree that the moderation failed to address the issue of the
    multiple flirtation derails in a timely manner. I can't speak for the
    others, but I was mostly indifferent to it, if creeped out, and didn't
    realize how much others disliked it. That's why I didn't speak up. And
    because I didn't notice quite how prevalent it was until today.

    I think that's not as much a fault of the moderation as it is the people who didn't like the derails but didn't flag, speaking as one of those people myself.
  • MalkavianMalkavian
    MORONS! I'VE GOT MORONS ON MY PAYROLL!
    Yeah, some things need to stay behind closed doors.
  • All NinesAll Nines
    Has friends besides tanks now
    "I think that's not as much a fault of the moderation as it is the people who didn't like the derails but didn't flag, speaking as one of those people myself."

    And it was a fault of the moderation in that they are also included in that group. Or at least, I am.
  • ForzareForzare
    Till shade is gone, till water is gone, into the Shadow with teeth bared, screaming defiance with the last breath, to spit in Sightblinder’s eye on the last Day.
    True.

    I think a big part of the reason I didn't flag the derails was because I didn't want to come off as a killjoy.  I thought they were detrimental, but I didn't say anything because no one else was really speaking up, and they seemed to be enjoying themselves.  I'm not blaming the other people who didn't say anything for what was my failure, but I think it's kind of a mindset I need to rid myself of.

    From now on, if I see anything that I feel is detrimental to the site as a whole, like I did those derails, I'll speak up and flag it, and not just keep quiet and let it build up like this.
  • NovaNova
    If you must eat a phoenix, boil it, do not roast it. This only encourages their mischievous habits.
    I'm not really sure how much of a good thing that would end up being...

    I do not think that would be a good thing. Not even because anything terrible was said, but because I would prefer it if the mods' private discussions, where we act as moderators in full-on mod mode, would stay between moderators. I would prefer not to set a precedent, too.

    I think that's not as much a fault of the moderation as it is the people who didn't like the derails but didn't flag, speaking as one of those people myself.

    And the moderators are also implicated in that. Not as mods, particularly, though, but as users who also did not speak up. Although we also did not really act as moderators should.
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