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"Religion is the source of morality"

Tnu1138Tnu1138
edited 2011-08-07 17:48:35 in General
I don't know man you see plenty of well to do people without religion. The notion that if you didn't have religion you'd probably be a Complete Monster frankly scares me and offends my Objectivist sensibilities. This is obviously a problem with you not with society.

Someone could have mentioned the nine earlier.
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Comments

  • CrimsonCrimson
    Give us fire! Give us ruin! Give us our glory!
    Wait, you're an Objectivist now?
  • MyrmidonMyrmidon
    I believe that morality is derived from calculation of pleasure vs pain and weighing the consequences of actions without recourse to any transcendent norms, so I have no choice but to believe in God to avoid falling into sociopathy.
  • BeholderessBeholderess
    To  be honest, this one finds claims that it is impossible to be moral without religion more than a little offensive. And as far as sources of  morality goes, religion tends to be rather scary one, as it  is not based on the actual people, and seems to be immune to argumentation. If an irreligious person has a problem with this one, a possibility of changing their mind, offering some arguments against  their views, simply gaining their sympathy or bargaining if all else fails remains. With religion...it is not so.

    But this one cannot claim that religion is worse than most  other sources of  morality people follow. All of them can have rather scary implications if taken to  logical conclusion.  Utilitarianism, for example (shudders). Or Objectivism ;)

    This one's own ethics are not  religion based, however, they appear to have a  few unprovable premises as their foundation. There are things  this one holds as belief, and is unable to give rational explanation why. Even if she'll be able to find an explanation, it  would  be nothing but excuse, for  it  was not the reason for holding one's convictions in the first place.

    Is it much better?
  • ForzareForzare
    Till shade is gone, till water is gone, into the Shadow with teeth bared, screaming defiance with the last breath, to spit in Sightblinder’s eye on the last Day.
    To  be honest, this one finds claims that it is impossible to be moral without religion more than a little offensive.

    Same.  I try to be a good person because I want to be, not because some higher being that could banish me to eternal torment said so.
  • VorpyVorpy
    ☭Unstoppable Sex Goddess☭
    RELIJIN 101
    Scare more teacherous and paranoid people into doing right to avoid going to hell.
    Make the poor and underprivileged feel important knowing someone is out there watching them and nodding approvingly of all of the good deeds they do, which in turn makes them feel good.
    Create an environment of similar morals to prevent moralistic debates and fights breaking out due to disagreements in what is and isn't wrong.
    Use stories and aesops to teach lessons to the next generations and help them understand the context of all of the things that are wrong.


    The bolded one is the main one everyone hates, mind you.
  • RottweilerRottweiler
    Inside, too dark to read
    To  be honest, this one finds claims that it is impossible to be moral without religion more than a little offensive.

    Since it is possible for someone to be offended by a true statement, this tells us nothing about whether the statement is false.

    Any ethic based on transcendent norms is confronted with the fact that, as it's defined good and bad, we live in a world where bad things often happen to good people and good things often happen to bad people. So logically, to maximize happiness, one should discard any such ethic and adopt a consequentialist ethic in which actions are judged by their long-term pleasure and pain to self.

    Per Hobbes, the only way to control such rational people is through fear of the executioner if they violate norms that are part of the social contract. This is reasonable, but I assert that it is better to control people through love than fear. This means appeal to God and myth.
  • ForzareForzare
    Till shade is gone, till water is gone, into the Shadow with teeth bared, screaming defiance with the last breath, to spit in Sightblinder’s eye on the last Day.
    Then how do you explain people who don't believe in a higher power who still do good?
  • RottweilerRottweiler
    Inside, too dark to read
    ^ They're irrational. Not every atheist will reject the transcendent norms of their culture, which as Nietzsche correctly noted, make no sense once the metaphysics of the culture's cult are rejected.
  • IcalasariIcalasari
    edited 2011-08-07 16:00:49
    No rainbow star
    Rotweiler, what about how a lot of people feel good because they do good things?

    People still do good things, but it's due to the personal pleasure it brings in that case, so no need for religion

    So why not condition people so nigh on everyone feels like this?
  • ForzareForzare
    edited 2011-08-07 16:02:59
    Till shade is gone, till water is gone, into the Shadow with teeth bared, screaming defiance with the last breath, to spit in Sightblinder’s eye on the last Day.
    The implication that religion is the only thing keeping some people being good (or stopping them from doing bad things) is honestly a bit frightening.
  • MalkavianMalkavian
    MORONS! I'VE GOT MORONS ON MY PAYROLL!
    Per Hobbes


  • MyrmidonMyrmidon
    Can a mod change the thread title so there isn't an inexplicable 9?

    Also, the Inexplicable Nines would be a good name for a band.
  • Central AvenueCentral Avenue
    Aw, it was funnier with the inexplicable 9...
  • VorpyVorpy
    ☭Unstoppable Sex Goddess☭
    They have a trope for this.

    There Are No Atheists.
  • Tnu1138Tnu1138
    edited 2011-08-07 17:54:41
    I repeat. Someone could have said something sooner you know? Well naturally Vorpy. Without Therapists people have to turn to Religion to solve their problems.
  • VorpyVorpy
    ☭Unstoppable Sex Goddess☭
    ....what?
  • MoeDantesMoeDantes
    no longer cuddly, but still Edmond
    This really needs to be taken on an individual level.

    Some people are moral without religion.

    Some people aren't moral even with religion.

    Some people aren't moral unless they believe there's a reason to be. In these cases, scaring them with stories of a lake of fire can help.

    All in all though, I'd rather have the world with religion than without.
  • ForzareForzare
    Till shade is gone, till water is gone, into the Shadow with teeth bared, screaming defiance with the last breath, to spit in Sightblinder’s eye on the last Day.
    I'd rather have a world where people didn't have to use God to justify not being an asshole.
  • VorpyVorpy
    ☭Unstoppable Sex Goddess☭
    I'd rather have a world where EVERYONE was subjugated to my undying will and they did EVERYTHING I told them.
  • Tnu1138Tnu1138
    ~raises hand~ I'll join!
  • MoeDantesMoeDantes
    no longer cuddly, but still Edmond
    I'd rather have a world where people didn't have to use God to justify not being an asshole.


    The problem is, that'll never happen. Therefore, it's better to have God.
  • CounterclockCounterclock
    Belief
    ^ Says you.
  • MoeDantesMoeDantes
    edited 2011-08-07 18:45:21
    no longer cuddly, but still Edmond
    Says society. Many people only behave if they expect punishment. Since most of them will eventually learn how to work around human-bound forms of punishment, you want to supplement that by having them believe in a supernatural one.

    The only problem there is that they might not believe in it.
  • Tnu1138Tnu1138
    edited 2011-08-07 18:53:47
    This is the reason I abhor society and communitarianism/collectivism/Populism in general it makes too many assumptions.
  • CounterclockCounterclock
    edited 2011-08-07 18:52:36
    Belief
    I don't think Religion is the source of morality, though some religions will try to adopt good morals... maybe out of good faith I guess.
  • BeholderessBeholderess
    This one does not want X to be done to her without her consent, so this one would prefer to live  in society where doing X without her consent  is not allowed. Only actions this one able to directly control and influence are her own, so in order to live in such society, it is necessary (although, alas, not enough) for  her to refrain from doing X  to people without their consent.

    Seems like a  decent  rationale, with no need for religion to even enter the picture.
  • Tnu1138Tnu1138
    exactly what Beholdress said.
  • OutsideTheBauksiOutsideTheBauksi
    sleep is for the we[e/a]k
    IReadThatAs "Religion is the source of mortality".
  • MalkavianMalkavian
    MORONS! I'VE GOT MORONS ON MY PAYROLL!
    I'm pretty sure if we could magically wave away religion, human beings would act... pretty much the same just with different excuses.
  • Tnu1138Tnu1138
    I'm now reminded of this.



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