Egalia - the Gender-Neutral Preschool

RedEyedAbyss

As if I needed more reason to find Scandinavia attractive.

Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14038419

It's an interesting idea, teaching acceptance and equality to children at their most mentally malleable. Sure, there's the obstacle of society not working that way (though I'd argue that the primary influence against this is media, particularly commercials), but hey, everything has to start somewhere.

MadassAlex

Scandinavia sort of isn't fair. They get Vikings and this, what gives. 

nohaynicklibre

You should add IJAM to the title

Chagen

While the school has noble goals,

"The teachers avoid using the pronouns "him" and "her" when talking to the children."

This is just plain disturbing and seriously Utopian in the creepy kind of way.

RedEyedAbyss

It's not really a IJAM, more like something interesting I felt like bringing up (I guess using "Bugs" in its broadest sense). Probably should have added a line like "could this actually work?" to bring it more in line with usual IJBM standards, but it's implied.

^I think it's admirable. Language is a powerful force, you know. Besides, it's not quite as extreme as Anarchist Catalonia, which avoided "superior" pronouns completely (though I still like that idea too).

DarkDecapodian

Maybe it's just the headache talking, but why do I get the feeling that this is like one of those twee forests filled with talking animals, that gets bulldozed by orcs at the end of the first act?

Counterclock

@Chagen: Just use their names?

Name one situation in which they must absolutely use a gendered pronoun.

vandro

It only actually depends on which language is used.

glennmagusharvey

@Chagen: Well, the article says that they use a gender-neutral pronoun borrowed from Finnish.  (This thread doesn't yet mention it but the school is in Sweden.)

Does anyone know how close Swedish and Finnish are, linguistically?

Hatter

If the school just isn't using gender pronouns, that's fine. If they're making children behave differently, that's wrong.

Ponicalica

@glennmagusharvey They're of different linguistic families, but they probably cross-pollinated due to proximity.

@Hatter Differently from what?

Hatter

Differently from how children in a school normally behave. 

RedEyedAbyss

There exist boys that would shamelessly wear nail polish and cook in Easy-Bake Ovens if they weren't told it was "wrong". Is that not normal enough for you?

inkblot

We're barely at the point where deviations from gender roles are tolerated. Not encouraged, not accepted with no attempt to correct this behavior, tolerated. And some people aren't even at that point. This preschool is around 20 years ahead of its time, and it's unlikely it can stay open for long, even in Scandinavia. I'm gay, and even I'm instinctively creeped out by this.

MadassAlex

Depends where you're from and what your social demographic is. 

For instance, I have male friends that I've snuggled with shamelessly and no-one's given a shit, or even assumed anything. 

Hatter

Abyss, I really don't care if a boy wants to wear nail polish, or a girl wants to dress up like a fireman. And I'd say that it's wrong to tell them that boys are supposed to be big and manly and girls are supposed to be feminine. It's natural, if deviant, behavior, and to make them behave contrary to what they're biologically designed for would just mess them up.

What I'd have a problem with would be if teachers had "exercises" where that sort of behavior was encouraged for kids who didn't feel that way. I could see that happening.

RedEyedAbyss

Pure speculation. Point to the section in the article that indicates anything of the sort.

MadassAlex

what they're biologically designed for 

---

This ceased to be relevant since we ascended from the hunter-gatherer stage. 

Forzare

The article just seems like they're trying to avoid the "this is boys only stuff" and "this is girls only stuff" thing, so that the kids can do what they actually want, instead of having things forced upon them because they're a boy.  It didn't seem like the preschool would make boys play with dolls if they don't want to.

Hatter

Abyss, point to where I even implied that it wasn't speculation. Everything I've said has been in the conditional tense. 

Madass, we haven't "ascended." We're technologically advanced. Human psychology has NOT changed. Psychology is still determined by biology. Anyone who thinks otherwise is at best ill-informed.

RedEyedAbyss

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

MadassAlex

We're no longer dependent on hunting or gathering as survival mechanisms. Because of agriculture, that entire way of living is gone, dusted and irrelevant apart from a historical perspective. 

Despite the fact that we're still physically and psychologically the same, we have indeed moved past that. No need to enforce social restrictions that are past their due date. 

Hatter

Abyss, don't paraphrase Sagan like you pretend this is relevant to the original context of his argument. 

I was giving support for the venture based on the condition that a hypothetical situation like I outlined above did not occur. 

GLORIOUSLeader

The most input I can have on the subject is that I think it's nearly impossible to talk in Hebrew without using gender pronouns. But I don't speak it, so I may be wrong. 

Chagen

Also, gendered languages like German and Italian.....would not take kindly to this.

Crimson

I recall that there was an effort to push "ze" as a gender neutral pronoun in English. It crashed and burned, obviously.

Chagen

Because "they" doesn't exist, amirite?

DYRE

Even though the singular "they" has been in use for a very long time, it still can sound a little awkward sometimes.

Then again, "ze" is about a million times more awkward.

Chagen

"They" never really sounded that awkward to me.